By Andi on Monday, July 3, 2006 - 07:40 pm:

Hi, my husband heard Pinky speak on ABC today and was very impressed! I am hoping someone can give me some ideas to help our daughter and ourselves!!!!

Our (second) daughter was adopted from overseas at the age of 10 months. She is now 18 months old. She lived in a family situation until 10 months and slept in a family bed. Then she met us!! This is just to give some background. We practise attachment parenting (ie sling wearing etc etc) and we believe that her attachment to us is coming along very well.

For the first three or so months she slept well. We tried co-sleeping but she violently rejected this (too close we think) and so we put her in a cot and she slept well.

For the last 5 months she has had terrible troubles. She goes to sleep (we have a very strict bedtime routine) at about 7.30pm and goes down happily. At about 11pm she wakes screaming. I go to her, pick her up briefly, cuddle her and then she indicated she wants to go back into her cot. I put her down, she falls asleep and then EXACTLY 20 mins later she is screaming again and we go through the whole routine again. This continues every 20 mins until 4.00am. At this point she goes to sleep and wakes at about 7am. BTW if I don't pick her up I can not comfort her. She then has 1-2 naps a day of about 1.5 hours (in total).

She is in good physical health althoug small for her age and is very late in teething.

We have tried: co-sleeping (plays all night or cries unless she is on top of me); me sleeping on the floor next to her cot (leaps from cot onto me every 20 mins)...

We are getting pretty desperate. Pardon my french...but I am buggered! I really don't want to do controlled crying - I don't think it promotes attachment and this is our primary goal with our daughter at this stage in our lives together. But......we are tired, our 4 year old is tired....and our 18 month old is showing signs that she is very tired too.

I'd love some ideas - I am all out of them.

Thanks so much.

By Amanda R on Tuesday, July 4, 2006 - 09:32 pm:

Andi,
I have no advice as this is way beyond anything I have experienced. I just want to give you a Mum to Mum 'hug' - it sounds like you are going through a really tough time. I hope that some other mum's can be of more help than I have been and give you some suggestions to make life a little easier.
Chin up and I wish you a good night's sleep.

By Pinky on Tuesday, July 4, 2006 - 10:13 pm:

hi Andi,

You are doing a mammoth job! You are working so hard with your baby's attachment and being very sensitive to her needs - which are obviously VERY high. It really does sound as though your little one has some problems that she is working through and possibly these are emotional/ separation issues.

An email isnt enough to go through all the possibilities but I have a wonderful friend who also adopted a baby from overeseas at ten months and practices lovely responsive/attachment style parenting so would be very supportive to compare notes with and possibly suggest some ideas. Her child is now 3.

I could also recomnmend a psychologist who has adopted children from overseas -one as a baby and one an older child so is very aware of attachment issues. Or a fabulous child psychiatrist who specialises in infant mental health.

You really deserve some one on one professional support - and perhaps a doula to come and care for your children during the day so you can catch up on some sleep. (I can recommend a lovely one of these too)

It sounds as though your little one has had a thorough medical check? Ie allergies/ unrinary tract infection/ does she snore? What is her behaviour like during the day/ day naps?

Feel free to email me if you would like some of these contacts as I really think it would be wise to check out the reasons for your little ones distress.

Hugs,
Pinky

By andi on Wednesday, July 5, 2006 - 08:44 am:

Thank you so much for teh support Amanda!

Thanks for your reply too Pinky. Our older daughter was also adopted from o/s and also had horrendous sleeping problems BUT I knew where they were coming from and what to do. She was a puzzle but all her 'bits' fit a larger pictire which wasn't too hard to work out!!

But this little one is so complex (and so lovely)! During the day she is a confident, mischevious, happy, playful, loving little dare devil. She shows very good attachment to me, going pretty well with dh, and is appropriate with others in her behaviour after a period of being quite indiscriminate. I find her harder to 'work out' and therefore am less sure of how to respond/ am less confident in how we decide to respond.

I think I would like the number for the psychologist. Our little girl has been very thoroughly checked out medically. She is fine. Except she does have physical and behavioural signs of having a period in her early life where she did not get enough to eat. But we are working with her on this and I think we are making good progress. So I think you are right when you suggest that maybe the sleep issue is emotional. I'd love a doula howver our oldest daughter would in no way tolerate this (she is a long story but suffice to say a stranger looking after her would be far too stressful)!

Can you see my email address? If not let me know and I will post it if you would be so kind as to refer me to teh psych.

Thank you ever so much I really really appreciate your help!

By Michelle on Sunday, July 9, 2006 - 02:30 pm:

You poor thing! Another big hug coming your way!
Like Amanda said, I don't have much to offer as it does sound like nothing I've been through before! Thank god you found pinky
Big Hugs!! You are doing a wonderful job!

By Steph Dennard on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 12:14 am:

Hi Amanda,
Just a suggestion, perhaps your daughter is put out by the baby and needs re-assurance. Have you bathed the babies together and given the last feed together, this sometimes works. She could also being having nightmares. Does she watch the television, sometimes even he childrens cartoons can be a bit scarry for little ones. Although I am no advocate of dummies
it may help.
I feel for you it is very difficult, Chin up.
It won't happen for long. You may have to be quite firm also (dificult).

Best regards
Steph

By E Cain on Tuesday, July 3, 2007 - 10:32 am:

Hi Andi,

I have a 13 month old daughter (no 2 child) who doesn't sleep at night either. When she was 6 months old she starting waking up during the night. I was feeding her more during the night than the day. This lasted for 3 months which we put down to teeth. A month ago she started to wake up again and the only way to comfort her is if I pick her up, instantly stops crying, the only way she will go back to sleep is if she sleeps cuddled up to me. Once she is asleep she is put back in her cot, we usually do this 4 times during the night until about 3am when she will sleep until 7ish. Unfortunately her Dad is unable to help as it is only me that she wants. I can't even be in the kitchen with the barrier up (to stop them from touching oven) without her crying her heart out to be with me. I can handle her being very attached but I would like to know why she is waking up all the time during the night. I am a stay at home Mum and she has probably only been looked after by someone else about 5 times.

I have tried everything I can think of. Sitting on the floor beside the cot, singing, sitting in the room with the light on, sleeping in the room with her, my version of controlled crying, giving her water in a bottle. She crys for a while then stops to hear if I am coming then starts crying again.

She is now walking so you would think that she is worn out enough to sleep all night.

If anyone does have any more ideas, please let us know.

E.

By beck on Tuesday, July 3, 2007 - 11:09 am:

my second son woke and fed every 2 hours morning noon and night until he was about 2 & 1/2.

andi as pinky suggested it sounds like it may be an emotional/separation issue. I am wondering if she is testing you and your partner to see how you respond with her at night? a suggestion is you allow her to sleep on you all night for a couple of nights, you would need additional help during the day obviously, and slowly wean her into the bed with you and your partner???? i have no adoptive children but i do have a child with exceptionally high emotional needs although i am glad i parented him by heart as he is a delightful 9 year old now who is much more secure because we answered his needs as a baby/pre schooler. My eldest who is 12 and youngest who just turned 2 have no where near the same needs as him, so maybe it is personality as well as a challenging start in life. could she co-sleep with you during the day, even just to go to sleep and to wake up with you?
i have no experience with adoptive children so don't know if this is appropriate but just suggesting some things from one mum to another.
good luck, your children are lucky to have you
beck

By julie on Tuesday, July 3, 2007 - 09:29 pm:

Hi Andi.

Oh i think of u poor girl. I have a 13 month old she still wakes during the night but not as much as when she teeths.I dare say you got teeth coming through u see she wants to sleep but every 20 mins those nasty teeth are hurting her mouth. Maybe try her with panadol and rub some stuff on her gums i'm not a big beliver in sepration anxiety. there is a reason why she is waking u will work it all out. My first born son work every 20 mins of the night until he was 6 months old, he settled a little better as he just got bigger. ANOTHER SUGGESTION do u close her door at night? If so perhaps leave it open she might be used to a bit of noise and light.
it could be that she feels secure with it.

E Cain i too have ur problem think we are twins. LOL. my little princess is a mummys little girl too. GOOD LUCK,hope i have been a help. cheers Julie.

By Connie on Thursday, July 5, 2007 - 05:47 pm:

E Cain

we went through similar situations with our first and are experiencing it with our second. Our way out due to sheer exhaustion was to co-sleep. My hubby is currently in the spare room as he does not want to wake at all in the night. I am woken every 1.5 to 2 hours to comfort/feed - boob in her mouth when patting/back rubs don't work. This way I don't wake fully if I am lucky.

Good luck with it. I can definitely feel for you as am going through complete sleep deprivation. She is currently 8 months and this nonsense started when she turned 4 months - she was a dream night sleeper and a day velcro baby till then. Now is a night time and day time velcro child.

Hugs
Connie

By suzie on Thursday, July 5, 2007 - 09:27 pm:

Hi E,

I really like Beck's advice. Keeping her close to you for a few nights so she can gain some comfort and confidence can really help. I have a 19 month-old daughter who has often had periods like this - and rather than try and fight it I have just tried to meet her emotional needs as much as I can. It can be very distressing and you often feel like you are worn out but I think long-term it will build a strong trusting relationship between you; and she will always know you will be there for her.

Often during peak development periods babies seek reassurance from their Mums so you might find with this patch something very exciting will shortly turn up. It can even be an awareness of the world and her people in it. I have read studies that show during these very stressful periods there is an increased need for babies to have contact with their Mums - and if breastfeeding this translates itself as increased feeds and sleeping chest-to-chest with their Mum. Since I learned this, and my daughter is very sensitive to being away from me, I feed her directly on my chest, and let her sleep there during the day for a few days.

I strongly believe in separation anxiety because if it doesn't exist I have to come up with another reason for feeling like I am being gaslighted ! My daughter at 18/19 months is at the peak period of separation anxiety. She is terrified of strangers, won't go in the car, bus, or even let me use the ergo, and hasn't taken a daytime nap in over a week (until today, and thankfully, sanity has prevailed). We have not left the local radius of our house for over three weeks because it causes her so much distress. But today I think I saw the light at the end of the tunnel. Your daughter may be too young but tomorrow, with the aid of her 'people toys' I am going to try and explain how when people leave they go to their houses, but the important people, her family, always come home. Hopefully it will alleviate some of her worries. Maybe if she has some special toys you could try and pass on a simple message to her - walking already - she is probably a very bright spark and will cotton on to what you are saying! Even if it is a teddy hiding and then peek-a-booing with a little explanation.

If you haven't already Pinky's book 'Sleeping Like a baby' it gave me a lot of confidence when it was sorely shaken, so may help you. I have also gained a lot from the 'wonder weeks' concept which describes the development periods of babies and what is happening to them during these periods. Pinky has also recommended to me the book 'The Science of Parenting' but I haven't been able to locate a copy yet.

All the best (and to you Connie!). I think our sweet daughter is very sensitive and maybe she will always be aware of herself in the world. And I love her to BITS! And despite 19 months of sleep deprivation and many, many tears, I wouldn't change a single particle of her being. My advice, which may or may not suit you (!), would be to give yourself over to her completely for a few days, even a single day - be there wholly and completely for her. Hold her, sleep with her in your arms, let her feel your breath on her head. And it will pass.

By Michelle on Thursday, July 5, 2007 - 09:38 pm:

I just found this great article! I wish I had've read it earlier in my mothering journey, but I got to this place myself anyhow- and now my little boy tells me that he's ready for bed....
www.naturalparenting.com.au/index.php?id=218&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=420&tx_ttnews[backPid]=47&cHash=15148ffcb1

It just sounds so joyful and fun-filled, I hope you guys get as much from it as I did...

I love your advice Suzie, and I'm wishing all of you mums and dad's some blissful Zzz's
Hugs
Michelle

By julie on Thursday, July 5, 2007 - 10:49 pm:

Hi Suzie.

My son did this around the age of 12 months old, it's just a faze they go through. U see it really is a big world to them. It will pass but it is so nice to know she won't go to strangers.

My son still is stand-offish with them still but he also is shy. If some-one trys to cuddle him i just say he is shy but he will give u high five instead.

They are then ok with it. I absoultly feel for all mum out there who don't get sleep it will pass. My son is 4 and he sleeps all night now wakes up at 7.30 in the morning and in bed by 8.30 pm. sometimes later.


my daughter is getting better too starting to sleep better at nights as i stoped the night feed at 2.30 am replaced it with warter instead. she didn't like it at first but she got used to it and now i just give her a bottle of warter in bed. Good Luck all. Cheers Julie.

By Pinky on Thursday, July 5, 2007 - 10:54 pm:

hi Ladies - Suzie - your advice is so beautiful and accepting of your little one's needs - I totally agree that with surrender we get peace - its as though the babies/ children feel safe so can do what they need and feel confident - we are the big people and they need our help to regulate their big feelings. Their clinginess isnt due to things we are doing 'wrong' but rather what is happening for them developmentally - separation anxiety isnt about feeling insecure , but rather, a natural stage -the Wonder Weeks is a lovely book that helps explain this concept - there are physical, emotional and neurological milestones which arent always obvious to us until they are reached. At 13 months your tot could simply be 'teething' - check for molars at the back of her mouth - not just the front 'toothiepegs'.

Some exciting news to share -I will be sending out a newsletter in a few day when we are totally sorted!!

Anni Gethin (coauthor of Helping Your Baby to Sleep)and I are holding seminars - Love, Sleep and Your Babys Brain - so far in Sydney and Melbourne -in August. Other cities will follow.

See www.babysleepseminars.com.au for info . We will have Sydney venues up in the next couple of days too and online bookings by next week. For now, Melbourne people can book by faxing or posting the form.

If anyone would like some fliers to hand around,let me know - you can email from the site.

Would love to see you all there - Anni is great on brain research and a fabulous person - we had packed out talks in March and May for ABA, so are doing these to keep spreading the word re gentle sleep!!

Pinky

By sammy on Thursday, April 17, 2008 - 10:29 pm:

hi my name is sammy i have five kids and my last one is a boy named solomon and he gives me a real hard time all he does is cry and doesn't sleep during the night at all i have tried everything with him all my kids are in routine from the time they are born.

i have taken him to the doctors and everything is fine with him i was just wondering if anyone has any advice to give or something special that works with kids that don't sleep much.

it you can email me back please.

By Pinky on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 11:43 pm:

Hi Sammy
you havent mentioned your little one's age. There may be any number of reasons for crying a lot - obviously something is upsetting the poor wee fellow - have you read my book 100 Ways to Calm the Crying - it comes with a relaxation CD - or Sleeping Like a Baby? - these books may give you a different perspective and some tips that you can modify to suit your baby and your lifestyle ( I have five kids too- our 3rd was the unsettled bub but she is a stunning young woman now and very calm!) - perhaps a strict routine doesnt suit Solomon - he may be more sensitive than your others were. Often sensitive little beings need extra loving to help them feel secure; some are upset by noise and lights- just like some of us can be if we go outside without sunglasses - except that the whole world can seem overwhelming to these babies.

Have you tried baby massage?

Do you have a baby carrier/ sling? this may give you a bit of respite from the crying as it helps you get things done while he rests.

Hang in there and keep seraching for answers.

Warm wishes,
Pinky