By Sue Borg on Friday, January 5, 2007 - 03:54 pm:

Hi All,

We have a 20mo cherub who is intellectually very active. She said her first words at about 8-9mo & talks fluently now & comprehends very easily. She is just a giant spounge. A dream baby with sleeping at night (napper during the day & not much has changed there) she WAS till just before her 1st birthday. We have been through a lot since then with her night waking & tried co sleeping initially but hubby can't hack it. So I started taking her into the spare room so he could get his beauty sleep, which is fine because he has to work & I stay home. We have created a bedtime routine which does go for a while to try to wind her down. She has a bath whilst I shower then its a massage with some soft music but her mouth doesn't stop! Then its story time (I introduced this to have something to replace the night breast feed which she went off quickly after introducing the books) she is generally quiet for this. Then bed with soft music. I have had to rock & sing to her to get her to sleep for quite a while where when she was in our room I could put her down awake if she hadn't fallen asleep feeding. Thats okay I like doing that but when it takes like an hr it starts to get me really frustrated. We have been to a pediatrician, osteopath & nutritionist to address the wind that was waking her at night. I am doing everything ok in that dept. Use to love her vegies & people told me too many vegies. Wow, she is off vegies now & still wakes. Then it was oh maybe you should stop breast feeding!! Must be the breast milk - crap she is still waking now she has self weaned!! Sooo, I thought perhaps she needs to go into a bed to give her more room to roll over considering she can be a restless sleeper. Now on a mattress on the floor which she likes. So I lay with her & try to get her to wind down after the stories but it is taking so long. I am getting frustrated & raising my voice at her & because she is over tired by then she is getting frustrated & has started to hit & throw her teddies. She just won't be quiet & riggles around. I try to keep the stimulation to a low level after dinner - no play school! But dad gets home after she has dinner so I suppose thats exciting in it self.

Any ideas to help a smarty pants toddler wind down? I'm not sure what else I can do. Walking away from her doesn't work she just gets distressed & then it takes even longer to settle. I have tried it a few times as you get soooo many people in your ear telling you thats what needs to be done!! Not in this house!! I think the bed is going to be a success in eventually curing the night waking because on a good night it has reduced but we need a solution to the inability to wind down - for both of us!

Sue

By julie on Friday, January 5, 2007 - 06:14 pm:

hi sue sounds as though you have alot on your plate! sooo hard i know. i have no idea what advice to give you, but my son slept on the floor for awhile to, what we did for locky was done his room up and put a night light in his room as well as a radio, i belive it's normal for a child to go off certain foods well mine did as well as friends kids did to. have you tryed maybe going for a walk after dinner to wind her down. poor thing you had a dream baby to wan'ts to explore, if your worried about her not eating vegies and stuff, may be try her on actavite it's for people and kids what it dose is encorage the body so i heard and i did use this for my son as well as forced feeding him sounds crule but i had to because he lost 6 kilos and got sick alot. not saying your little bubba will. maybe pinky or one of the other girls have better advice i like micthell and pinkys advice they are great.good luck sue hope things come together for you real soon. cheers julie.

By Michelle on Monday, January 8, 2007 - 08:58 pm:

Aw, thanks Julie!

Hi Sue,
I didn't have a 'dream' baby (in the sleep department, he was perfect in every other way!!) but now I have a 'dream' toddler and I feel SO lucky!! so even though I'm getting lots of sleep at the moment, I can certainly sympathise, its horrible when your darling cherub keeps you from your sleep.

Sometimes it does take quite a while for my son to wind down in the evenings too (he is 2.5 though, but you said she was quite mature and verbal, so some of these ideas might help- I'll leave it to you to decide). Our routine is dinner, walk, bath and story with dad, breastfeed and cuddle with mum.

I usually cut his breastfeed short, just because if he is on there awhile it starts hurting a bit at the moment, and rather than get annoyed, I just say to him to finish up, I've had enough then I give him another minute or so and another reminder and then if he hasn't de-latched of his own accord, I just gently remove him and we have a cuddle. He usually then asks to go to bed and to have his bottom patted (he calls it 'bom') which if I'm in the mood I will give him, but if he is mucking around, talking and fidgiting I usually stop and just say 'no more bom, time for sleep'.

Then what I find is best is if I sit by him while he goes to sleep, but if I watch him or concentrate on trying to 'get' him to sleep he just continues to fidgit and want more cuddles (I always give unlimited cuddles because I love them and we are both really still and it doesn't make my arms tired like bom). So what I do is I knit or read or grab the laptop and go online (am actually doing that right now sitting in the dark while TJ goes off to sleep) and just be really boring, but somehow by removing my focus off him and onto some other task (which he finds boring but also increases my patience because I'm 'doing' something) he will usually go to sleep quite quickly or he'll fidgit for awhile, but because I'm not trying to hurry him up I don't resent the time spent sitting with him as much.

I'm trying to remember what our routine was like when my son was 20 months....but I can't I'm sorry! but it seems as though you have a good winding down routine, so maybe if you can find away to meet both your needs here??
And good on you for fending off advice that doesn't feel right!!
Best of Luck
Michelle

By julie on Monday, January 8, 2007 - 11:00 pm:

your welcome michelle. just your way of explaning to people is great, you have away thats for shure have you ever concidered counciling? ( i'd go crazy listening to other people all day), but you do have a lovely way . cheers julie

By Pinky on Monday, January 8, 2007 - 11:30 pm:

Hi Sue - what a bright spark your toddler sounds- you sound really patient and devoted so please dont feel guilty for getting frustrated and dont let anybody 'should' on you ( "should walk away" etc etc - it is best to stay as you are doing and as it feels right for you). Michelles suggestions of staying are lovely - might be a while before she is able to accept these though seeing shes a bit younger than TJ.

There was a lovely English paediatrician when one of my little 'no sleeper/ busy boys' was little - Hugh Jolly - he said that the bright ones slept less so I clung to the fact that I must be rearing a genius - not sure about that, hes a lovely bright adult with loads of energy but it was better than all the 'let him cry' advice.

I am wondering if tweaking your bedtime routine could help a little (it may not, so sorry if it sounds like a promise or doesnt make a difference) - rather than bath then massage, a massage first may work better - bathing helps relaxation in a physiological way ( as I mention in "Sleeping Like a Baby" ) - one trigger for sleep is a slight drop in core body temperature - a bath will increase the temp then it will lower slightly afterwards - this makes us( and babies/ toddlers) feel drowsy -so heading to bed while this drowsiness is at a peak, keeping lights dim and slowly/ monotonously/ gently reading once your little one is snuggled in bed - dim lights - may help her wind down better. Sometimes with an active child, massage can actually be stimulating. It does though help stimulate production of melatonin and oxytocin which both have relaxing effects - so if these are increased then the bath also helps with drowsiness, it may be a better sequence. Tummy massage before a bath will also help release any wind that may be causing discomfort too.

Have you tried gentle music like "Music for Dreaming" as part of her wind down?

Its really worth looking at your childs whole day too, not just bedtime - is she napping? Does a nap help her stay calmer in the evening? Is she at a stage where she is cutting out day naps? Are her days really busy? Do different daily patterns have any effect? Is she getting molars at present?

Its really a maze but the mattress/ bed idea often helps a lot for these active wee beings.

Best wishes,
Pinky

By sarah on Tuesday, January 9, 2007 - 03:17 pm:

Hi Sue
I can symphatise with you. I too find it difficult to put my 19mths old to sleep. I get so frustrated and angry with myself, wondering what have i done wrong. I too ask for outside help and most of them suggested control crying, which we don't believe that.

For the last month or so, my husband has been putting Ben to sleep. I can't put him to sleep because he always ask for milk from me (I've weaned him off for about a month now). my husband routine is after Ben has his bath, he reads story, then play Ben's favourite CD while my husband would carry him just until he looks half asleep. then he put Ben on the bed, pat him for a while. on a goodnight, this takes about 10-15mins. otherwise, my husband will have to carry Ben till he falls asleep and sometimes it can take 45mins! (very taxing on the back!).

we also notice and we really have to tire out him during the day. he's a very active child (or as my husband would say, 'high spirited')

I too sometimes get impatient & angry and wish that I have a magic wand that can help me with this problem. But I know that one day Ben will be able to sleep by himself without any assistance. until we can reason with him, we just do what we have to do.

Sarah

By julie on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 10:38 am:

hi girls i do symphatise to you all yous are all doing a great job, yes you are right sarah it wont be forever my 3 half still wakes a cationally now not as often though 19 months is a hard time for parents, as they do change i really found that if i let my son go for asleep when ever in the afternoon sometimes he would sleep 3 or 4 or 5 oclock in the afternoon he would be up all night, not saying that this is whats happening with your little ones, but they do change, now i had a fantastic 7 month old she is now wakeing i tell you it is hard as they are all different and as long as we can say hey it wont be forever, my sister has a 16 yr old she said i will trade you any day so lets enjoy the cuddles while we can. cheers julie

By Sue Borg on Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 10:11 pm:

Wow, what great suggestions. Thanks ladies.

You know we use to walk alot during the day when I was having trouble getting her to sleep but its too hot by the time she is ready for a sleep. We are down to 1 sleep a day now & since writing my first post we have had good & bad days. Sleeping up to 2hrs during the day & a few excellent nights only waking once or twice but for the past 4 days its been testing. Waking every 1-2 hrs at night but settling back down well. We are both very ratty due to not having a good deep sleep. She has been very naughty & grizzly as a result. Pinky, I have seen signs of her 2yo molars coming through. Lots of chewing on bottle straws, grinding & a grotty nose for the past week or so. Actually got a finger in there to feel & there was a bump at the back so perhaps they are giving her a hard time. Teeth have been a big bother for her I think, getting several teeth at once since she started teething. Not sure if she is ready for me to sit in her room & do something else but I might give it a go. Sometimes I try to ignore her & she keeps saying mummy & I tell her I'm not talking to her because its time to be quiet & go to sleep. I can see she gets frustrated because she has started hitting me more & especially if I ask her to stop. I know it won't last for ever thats what I tell others who give me criticsim but most just don't get it. I love having her with me 100% of the time & if I had my way she would sleep with us all the time if she wanted to. Even going shopping & stuff I love her being there but other mums just can't wait to get rid of their kids. I'm only having 1 & waited 6 years for her so I am making the most of the times where she actually wants to be with me!!

Pinky, Chloe is having a sleep after lunch & her days aren't that busy. We have activies on a Mon & Fri & due to start kider gym in Feb. So I think 3 days a week is sufficient. I try to limit the amt of playschool watched especially toward dinner time. Generally its only 2 half hr episodes a day but the tv can be left on for a while if I am busy but she generally tags along with me so she doesn't watch it. We always have stories before bed but lately she has been wanting to read them herself! I have Peace Baby as my music for sleep but am interested in the Music for Dreaming. I use the massage for 2 purposes - to wind down & she suffers from eczema so I make up my own mix from either Avacado oil or Apricot Kernal oil with Lavender, Chamomile & Rose. I think she really enjoys it, we sing & I try to keep it low key. But she constantly talks whilst I am massaging.

Thanks all for your pointers. Its nice to talk with others who have gone through similar things & have constructive advice!

Sue

By Amanda R on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 01:23 am:

hehehe - its the name - Chloe, I have a Chloe & she chattered constantly (still does) and she never wanted to sleep (doesn't like to miss out on anything). Wanted (and still does) to be with Mummy all the time lol! I used to have to quieten her mind before even contemplating winding her down for sleep. I used to tell her stories about herself and her friends/cousins. They were the same 4 stories and I told them over and over. I found this worked well as books would simply keep her head whirring. THey were simple tales and because they were repetive they were soothing, and because they were about her and her people she wanted to keep hearing them. One of the stories was about the day that she was born and how everyone was so happy to finally see her and how Mummy and daddy couldn't believe how wonderful she was, and how tiny her little feet and hands were and how she cried in the night and woke the other babies. Another was about a weekend away she had with us and her aunty and uncle - a simple recall of the weekend, the motel, the bbq, the pool, the magpie that was there and the drive and the songs we sung. Simple little stories and they really helped. I then would lie with her until she slept. If she talked I'd gently shoosh her and tell her its sleep time. It worked for us - maybe some of it may help you....worth a try anyhow. I think the darkened room, and the gentle softly spoken stories did the trick the most though.

By Pinky on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 10:17 pm:

Oh Amanda - you are bringing back memories - at 2, I used to have to tell James the same story every night - in the dark - A friend had gnomes in her garden and James fell in love with these little gnomes so one night she brought a gnome down after he had gone to sleep and we put him in our garden -in the morning James was so excited that one of Aunty Cathy's gnomes had come all the way down the hill ( from the Dandenongs)to live in our garden - I had to tell him the story of how "my half" ( James' name because the gnome was "half me" -(James size) and how 'My Half' had come down the hills- hiding from dogs; climbing under fences etc etc to get to our garden just as the sun was coming up, because gnomes can only be real at night when nobody is looking.
James loved the story and tellinga story that is familiar does seem to shut them down, rather than stimulate their active little minds.
Thanks for the lovely memories.

Best of luck Sue -You sound like a wise and gentle mummy - lucky Chloe - who is probably waking with her umcomfortable teeth as well as her active little mind.

Pinky

By Sue Borg on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 03:51 pm:

Old yes (38), wise, I don't know about that but gentle I like to think so.

Well, we have had some weird nights since my last post. Every night is different. The past couple of nights after Chloe has woken a few times I have just slept with her in her bed. The bed is a great hit & she doesn't want to go into the spare room with me she wants her bed. So thats progress. Very uncomfortable for mum though, sharing a single bed. Must make a note to start looking for a bed with a trundle! We had some friends over Sat night & one of the ladies who has 2 kids suggested she might be dreaming given her age & all the processing they have to do. And I think she might be on to something there. I have noticed after I have settled her in the middle of the night she will often wake again within a short time crying out for me. She has always been a mummies girl but it seems as though its a security thing if its not a pain in the belly.

Have been to see my essential oil lady & she has given me a few new pointers. She now has geranium which should help with Chloes eczema & any anxiety. I am adding some oils to her bath now as well as the massage. She has a nice soaking bath whilst I have a shower so hopefully it will help her relax. I would love to take her for a walk after a bath but because I have a shower then it defeats the purpose for myself.

Have tried with the stories (not books) & it has worked to a point. Its like I have given her speed before trying to put her down! Might try the massage before bath, that way I won't have to put any oils in her bath, perhaps that will help.

Sue

By Amanda R on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 08:32 pm:

its funny but you'll find the answer and sometimes you don't even quite know what thing it is (or combination), that is the magic potion - or perhaps they just grow out of it no matter what we do! Regardless, think of how lovely it is for Chloe to have stories with Mummy, beautiful smelly baths and lovely massages, whether they wind her down or not it sounds like a lovely bedtime to me!
Pinky - sounds like the sort of story that I tell lol! Jesse has Super Jesse stories and he always 'SAVES THE DAY' - thanks SUPER JESSE! He loves them, he actually shivers with delight sometimes when I get to the thanks Super JEsse part! Sometimes it becomes a chore but I know I will recall it so very fondly.