• What about the mums? 7/10 08:27am

• Separation Issues 11/12 09:25am

• Home daycare 10/31 11:38pm

• The Witching Hour 2/11 01:44pm

• My daughter very slow 1/26 05:17pm

• Babies who don'tsleep much 2/20 12:50pm

• Sleep and boobs.... 1/7 11:15am

• Crying baby - wont sleep 2/21 11:03am

• How to start using baby pouch 3/25 01:44pm

By Naomi Westley on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 02:23 pm:

I have a baby who is approx six months old now. She tends to winch and cry much more than my first. My solution is to make sure she is'nt wet, hungry or hurt. If none of these apply, then I just put her into her cot and let her cry herself to sleep. I know some of you out there may feel this is cruel, but, I think it is important that children learn discipline at an early age. This requires the parents to be strong as I know myself it can be heartbreaking listening to them cry.

By Pinky on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 06:53 pm:

Hi Naomi
What you are saying really scares me - this is abuse not discipline - you are feeling awful -your baby is expressing a need - how is this discipline??

Discipline comes from a latin word meaning to teach - it is not denying the basic needs of a small helpless person who cannot express her needs any other way than by crying - all you are teaching her is that the world is a cruel place -that she is helpless and there is no point reaching out for comfort or to ask for help from another human being ( a wonderful skill for any of us).

Leaving babies to cry has been associated with later panic, anxiety and depression due to physiological changes to the brain -these comments are based on research from Harvard University.

There is now a wealth of evidence that parental responsiveness can boost your baby's intelligence and that babies who are responded to promptly during the first six months actually cry less later.

I think you have allowed yourself to be brainwashed by some man in suit ??? fundamentalist religious crap. If you think this abandonment of your baby is somehow "christian" whay not check out my links to www.askdrsears.com -William Sears is a Christian paediatrician who advocates gentle ways and responsive parenting.

His book on discipline is wonderful - and shows how by responsively parenting you build a foundation of trust between yourself and your child which makes for real discipline -not some cowering fearful behaviour to avoid punishment - or losing your love (which is the road you are on at present)!

Perhaps the easiest way to see what is right for your baby apart from listening to what you feel in your heart (not some "outsider who isnt there anyway") is to put yourself in your baby's bootees - imagine if you arrived in a foreign country and couldnt speak the language but were very thirsty or hungry -what if you couldnt make anyone understand what you were trying to communicate? How helpless would you feel if everyone simply walked on -ignoring you?

Or
how would you feel if you tried to talk to your partner and he or she ignored you completely?

Get it??

Do you want your child to come to you in years to come when she or one of her friends is in trouble? Now is the time to show her you are there for her!

Pinky

By Nicole on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 10:48 pm:

I feel so completely distraught for Naomi's baby - firstly - no baby should be taught discipline - especially at 6 months old!!! Controlled crying is not about teaching a child to sleep - it is about teaching the child that you are going to come to them and comfort them sometimes, then abandon them at other times.
Babies who are subjected to this treatment - eventually realise that Mummy will not come and comfort them - so they give up trying... and in the meantime... their hearts break.
The see-through excuse of checking their nappy, that they're not hungry etc is rather perculiar. I know that if I want a cuddle from my husband - he will respond by cuddling me back - not by asking "are you cold/hungry/hurt???"
Babies have complex emotions/needs/wants which far surpass merely wanting a nappy change. Sometimes we may not be able to work out WHY our baby is crying - but the one distinct fact remains - that baby wants YOU. Even if baby cries in your arms (and all obvious needs have been met) - just holding her, rocking her, walking with her, singing to her... holding her close and comforting her.... is all that she needs - it is all that she wants.
Controlled crying seems to be the modern method of getting our babies to sleep - yet, all babies are individuals - some are just plain wakeful babies, or nervous/insecure... and need that constant reassurance of body contact.
We need to reclaim grassroots mothering - and listen to and trust our mothering instinct - that which makes us yearn to hold and comfort our babies when they are distressed. It is as emotional as it is physical - (the obvious physical response to our crying babies is to lactate!).
I speak from experience - I have had 2 wakeful babies - and I put it into perspective - in the whole of my lifespan, this is such a short time. I would rather comfort my baby and find ways of coping with sleep deprivation than break my baby's heart and my own.
Why persist with something that feels so innately
wrong???
Listen to your baby - she needs you.

By Liam's mama on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 06:23 pm:

I hope Naomi took some of the advice I see here. I missed that post the other times I was here-how utterly heartbreaking that so many mums in our culture have this attitude. Babies by their very natures are dependant on their carers, and research has shown a baby who's needs are quickly attended to, or anticipated, will cry a lot less. Babies need to be held, close to their mother, and going to sleep on the breast, or in a sling, or their mothers arms is entirely natural. i find this whole culture of "sleep training" "dicsipline" the prevalence of Controlled crying, and sleep centres etc truely abhorrent, and very sad..

By puja on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 11:51 pm:

My 4 and a half month old is driving me crazy with his sleep patterns and wants the breast every half an hour or so. I talked it out with the child health care nurse yesterday and she discussed controlled crying amongst other forms of help. I've read about it and tried to give it go tonight. I don't think I can ever forgive myself for doing so. i couldn't even complete it.
People tease me often for being a mum who picks up her baby the moment he makes a sound, but I guess I'd rather do that for the rest of my life than see tears rolling down my son's cheeks ( first time ever tonight).
Maybe I am not being logical but how can you let your own child cry and say its controlled or whatever? It is downright inhumane.
After what I saw in Kane today, I seriously think that the reason why children sleep from the controlled crying method is because of sheer exhaustion rather having anything learnt from it.

By Janet on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 10:17 pm:

Congratulations on standing up to the CC brigade. It's tantamount to child abuse to let a little baby cry itself to sleep. Have you tried Pinky's books or even just the suggestions on her web site? I've found them really good. I have a 14 week old boy who sleeps with us, is solely bf and is picked up as soon as he squeaks. It works really well for us and him. Does your bub sleep with you? It can make a huge difference to the amount of sleep you get. My baby wakes to be fed a few times a night but there's no getting up, no settling and no crying. So both of us sleep the maximum we can. I am not sleep deprived in the way that people kept telling me I would be. There are also other resources for parents following their hearts such as www.naturalparenting.com.au or www.alternativebaby.net I don't know where you are but in Melbourne we also have a natural/alternative parenting group with a web site and regular play group meetings. There is a diversity of approaches there although most follow basic ideas like bf, sling wearing and co-sleeping. This might help you out. It sounds like your baby is lucky to have a mummy who follows her instinct rather than the 'expert' view. CC has been shown in many studies to have very negative effects on baby development. Stick with your gut and maybe try some of Pinky's ideas? My personal fave is the co-sleeping and breastfeeding to sleep and we have had great success with it. Who knows what your bubby might like?! You can only experiment. But what lovely time to have with lots of cuddles!
Best of luck, feel free to post again and keep in touch. I'll look out for you!
Janet

By S Johnson on Monday, March 1, 2004 - 03:03 pm:

Hi Janet,

I read with interest your posting on this site regarding the natural parenting / altnerative website in Melbourne. I live in the South Eastern Suburbs of Melbourne.

Do you mind letting me know of the website address (via this site) as I am the mother of an 11 week old and am having loads of trouble trying to settle him to sleep.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Best Wishes
Stefania

By Janet on Tuesday, March 2, 2004 - 12:06 pm:

Hi Stefania,
poor you and bub! You can try www.naturalparenting.com.au and www.alternativebaby.net.au

There's also play groups attached to alternativebaby through the Melbourne Alternative and Attachment Parenting forum - MAAP. There is a SE group which meets regularly and I know they welcome new members happily!

I hope you get some relief soon. If you want to email me privately, it's sheelnagig@hotmail.com

Best,
Janet

By pinky on Thursday, March 4, 2004 - 09:31 pm:

Hi Stephania,
You can also meet lovely gentle mums at my weekly Tuesday discussion group (in Oakleigh)or alt Fridays at Hawthorn. I live in SE suburbs too but dont have a baby to organise and travel with. I am starting a baby massage class in Oakleigh on Tuesday (9th March) and that can help enormously with settling -we also discuss baby's cues, sleep and how to teach them a relazation response.

The Oakleigh classes are held in a room at the back of Nature House Health shop. The owner Liz offers discounts on baby products (Aromababy, Brauer and Weleda) and has a Juice bar with specials for the group mums, so its very nurturing.

Have you read 100 Ways to Calm the Crying? Theres a whole chapter on sleep and settling taht could be helpful.

Do hang in there girls - controlled crying is against all our basic instincts -you are never "weak" for listening to your baby. Its a pity so much pressure is put on mums to "break their baby's spirit" - remember, bonding is a 24 hour process. Enjoy every cuddle.

Hugs to you all.
Pinky

By Anonymous on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 04:09 pm:

A big thank you to both Janet and Pinky.

I have done heaps of reading and investigated this subject further and came across the Queen Elizabeth Centre in Melbourne. They have a sleep clinic which I went to last Tuesday and it has worked wonders.

Amongst other things it taught me, it advocates putting your baby to bed awake and then leaving the room. When baby starts to cry, you go back into the room, comfort them until they stop crying, leave the room again and over and over until the baby is relaxed and can fall asleep on its own.

This has worked absolute wonders on my son. The first time it took me 45 minutes of going into his room and consoling him to get him to sleep using this method. The next time it took me ten minutes. Now three days later it takes me only a minute or so to put him to bed. I would never have dreamed !!!

So, to anyone else out there who is having problems - the Queen Elizabeth Centre in Noble Park Melbourne were fantastic. It is public funded and there can sometimes be a wait but they worked wonders and it didn't make me heartbroken in the process listening to my baby's crys.

Pinky, I have only just been able to read your message (late March) and am really annoyed with myself that I have missed your baby massage class. Is there any other classes starting soon.

My email address is Stefaniaj@ozemail.com.au if anyone is interested in emailing me privately.

Regards
Stefanie

By pinky on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 10:15 pm:

Hi Stefani -I have baby massage classes starting on Tuesday 20 April at Oakleigh and Friday 16 April at Hawthorn. If any of you would like a registration form let me know. Massage is a lovely way to tune in and learn your baby's cues and you can actually teach even tiny babies how to relax -a great help with sleep -and no crying involved. This is really the great thing as even tho some babies can be relatively easily "sleep trained" , at new developmental stages, many babies wake again or become clingy,(some babies become clingy as a result of sleep training) so massage is a tool that lasts whatever is happening.

Pinky

By susie on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 11:09 am:

Help!!!
My heart breaks as a sit reading these posts. I, like many others, have suffered from extreme sleep deprivation and decided to try the 'control crying' thing, in desperation and as a last resort. My little girl is only 10 weeks old and I feel so guilty for subjecting her to it. As she was left to cry, I sat on the lounge room floor with tears running down my face, sobbing as I fought my instinct to go to her. Even more heartbreaking was the sound of her crying quietening down as she began to give up, realising that no-one was coming. I got to the point of 'switching off' to her cries, which also brought me to tears as I realised I was doing the exact opposite of what I believe in. I have decided that 'control crying' is simply wrong. It goes against all of my instincts. But how do you juggle taking care of your own health and being there for you child on demand? We were at the point of getting no more than 2 - 3 hours of sleep per night, and I was lucky if I got another 2 hours during the day. After being rocked or breastfed to sleep, my daughter would wake screaming within 5 mins of being put down. During my pregnany I dreamed of co-sleeping with my baby and I would still love to do it, however, my baby does not settle in bed with us either, unless she is attached to my breast, and that does not work for me. I have small breasts and cannot find a comfortable position in which I can breastfeed and sleep, and attachment is not good either. So the baby is sleeping, but I still lie awake with sore nipples. I got to the point of being so fatigued that a developed blocked ducts (luckily not progressing to mastitis, but extremely painful just the same), and I became irrational in my thinking. I know it is important to look after my own health too, because if I am unwell, I can't give my baby the best care she deserves. While I have abandoned 'control crying' for good, I am still looking for a solution because I can't allow myself to become that fatigued again. Suggestions please????

By Amanda Lalor on Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 08:59 pm:

Hi Susie, I really feel for you. I can definitely relate. My son woke every two to three hours a night until I guess two/three months of age. Actually still feeds during the day every two hours too which I have learned to accept for the moment. I left the hospital having been told that he had become a 'snacker' and NOT to feed him under three hours. Mostly we followed this advice but it wasn’t easy. He wouldn’t sleep in the evenings at all well not that I remember but luckily either my Mum who was with us at the time or my husband would nurse Jesse until his next feed. Usually he would cry for the entire time. I would be in bed trying to sleep. I would go to bed at say 4pm while Mum was with him and then nurse when he was due and then back to bed again. He would then nurse around say 10/11pm after which I would need to rock him in my arms until sleepy and then I would lay him down in his cot in our room. In the early days nursing and rocking him to sleep would take 90mins. These days thankfully its down to 10 mins (yes can you beleive it). Sometimes he would wake and other times thankfully not. If he woke I would listen to see what kind of cry it was - the tired one like 'wa wa wa'. I was so tired that some nights I just put the pillow over my head and he would drift off. I had the benefit also of having one of those night cameras so I could see what he was doing. It really helped. I could see him looking around and then he would 'wa wa' and eventually he would settle to sleep. Of course he had his moments and I guess you just do the best you can and hope that it wont continue (and for me luckily it hasn’t). I guess I was very fortunate to have had my parents stay with us for this time to help. I did suffer from the 'blues' too although we did have additional stress. My husband got a transfer so we had to finish our house, pack and move in just eight or so weeks, as well of course as tend to our beautiful baby boy. Lets just say I had my work cut out for me.
On co-sleeping - I had similar ideas but Jesse didnt want a bar of it. He does now however co-sleep just fine with us although will nurse more frequently. In fact when we moved here we didn’t set the cot up straight away so he slept with us. We use one of those safe and sound rolls. It helps to keep him in position. Hes a wriggler so unless I use the roll he generally ends up right up against me and I don’t get any sleep. I definitely recommend the rolls and apparently they like sleeping on their sides because it resembles the womb so perhaps it could also help your little one feel more secure whether shes in her own bed or not. Cant wait until we have our king sized bed back so we can all spread out. Should be allot better then. We’ll probably use both him sleeping in his cot and co-sleeping with us.
With regard to breast feeding while laying down - as with you my breasts aren’t big enough. I tried (lol) just recently actually and the poor little might was trying desperately to stay attached. It was just silly (lol). I thought how does he get to the other one - do I move or does he. I figured this wasnt easier for us so gave up pretty quickly on that idea. I can imagine though of the ease of it for the lucky 'bigger' breasted women. The only time in my life that I actually wanted larger breasts (lol).
After reading some books I thought that I would try control comforting too. Well took me one day to figure out that we both hated it. My heart goes out to you because I can understand how difficult it can be. Please know you are not alone. Trust your heart and if you hated it then don’t persist.
I know some women will cringe at this but have you thought about using a dummy? Jesse uses one to self settle and then spits it out once hes ready to drift off. Perhaps you could try this? Its not for everyone but it may help you space out your feeds, in which case perhaps your partner could go to her and use the dummy to settle her to allow you to stretch the time between feeds (at least at night)? Be aware though then she may start to cry again when she realises its gone – but I just thought that perhaps she just needs to suck and that this is where ‘hubby’ can really do you a favour and take her crys in between her due feeds to give you that much needed rest. We opted for the MAM dummies because I felt they most resembled my nipple but look around there are plenty to choose from.
Perhaps also you could try the book by Elizabeth Pantley - The NO Cry Sleep Solution. I just read it myself and I think its truly wonderful. Elizabeth is an angel and provides allot of helpful ideas/solutions that you could consider. Once we're settled into our own place (still with Mum and Dad after our move (lol)) I will do Jesses plan to gently iron out some of things that need changing. Try your local library and if you like it you can get it from www.capersbookstore.com.au. I know that other mothers on this sight have also used this and are seeing improvements.
Another book you could try is Pinkys actually called Parenting by Heart. I found this book particularly helpful to nurturing YOU!
I hope this helps and happy to answer any questions you may have.
Have strength that you can do this and you are not alone.
Warmest wishes gentle mother...you will sleep soon!
Amanda

By Patricia from Geelong on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - 12:11 pm:

hi i would like to just say that firstly i do what you call controlled crying i prefer the term "Getting into a routine". Secondly i do agree that it sounds rough when the term discipline is used for any child that is not able to understand what is being asked. But why be so "im much better than anybody else"? And why bring in religion PINKY? I can't believe what you guys are saying, my child is always happy smiles all the time and yes she LOVES HER PARENTS VERY MUCH, and you know what she also crys, did you know that is is been found that it is healthy for a baby to cry at least an hour a day (not all in one go) IM SURPRISED you havent said "That bottle feeding is a criminal offense in your eyes" And hey guess what i only breast feed for 6 weeks no i better run and hide, NOT, you are rude, crude and stupid, and im spreading the word that this site is bull#@*! and not worth wasting time on, i cant believe i went on this site, The person that stated this site on Huggies is just like you Pinky i should've known

By rebeccab on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - 04:07 pm:

patricia,
What an incredibly aggressive post on what has been a really nice place for me to go and have a look and gain support where needed. If it isn't for you, then move on but by attacking pinky and the people who have chosen to use this forum to meet there own needs, surely you are guilty of the 'im much better than anyone else' you accuse others of.
Pinky is a well known attatchment parenting advocate, so it should come as no surprise that the information here and the people using the forum are likeminded. Breastfeeding is the best nutritional option for babies but not everone makes that choice, but the 'criminal offense' position you take is a little dramatic.
I think you would find if you looked beyond the surface that your choices would be supported, rahter than judged adversely, if that's what you were seeking, but I am not sure that is wha you want at all.
I am sure you would be welcome back here, Patricia but maybe you need to work on letting go of some of your anger and come back another time. We would respect you, show Pinky and others the same.
Becc

By Michelle Fulcher on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - 07:00 pm:

I think defensiveness such as Patricia's is a sign of inner pain. How are we making her feel 'guilty' by sharing stories on how we choose to parent? We choose to feel the way we do, and if she chooses to feel guilty, no one has caused that but herself. It is amazing to me how agressive mother's get when people don't do things the same way they do. Even attached parents sometimes come across as aggressive when they come across others who don't share their view. It's funny you know, a talk was being given on 'sleep and settling' this week at my mothers group (read- Controlled crying) and I printed out all the anti-CIO papers and studies and was ready to go and try to enlighten the other mothers on the other side of the story, but in the end I thought 'what am I getting out of doing this? Do I feel I need to defend the way I parent my child? No. Do I want to make the other mothers feel guilty? Do I want to get into a fight?' I decided not to go. If the other mothers want to find out about alternative parenting strategies they will go out and look for them the way I did. I don't need to force my ideals down anyone elses throat. I still feel it is a pity that our health system still educates new mothers that CIO is the only method to get our babies to sleep.

By Amanda Lalor on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - 09:03 pm:

Hi Guys,
This is very heated…Im not sure where to start.
Patricia there are actually other mothers on this site who currently use “getting into a routine” (as you call it) and have no issues with sharing their stories and have developed strong relationships with the other mothers of this site who don’t advocate this method. In fact allot (including myself) have tried this method and were unhappy with the results. We are certainly not here to judge anyone but share our stories and seek comfort and support from one mother to another. We also respect each others difference of opinion! I might also add that some crying is healthy for babies but I (I don’t want to speak for anyone else) believe its best while in arms. Perhaps if you knew more about the philosophies behind attachment parenting you may not be so critical or judgmental.
One of the most important lessons for me as a first time mum is that there is always going to be a difference in opinion on how we raise our children. That’s only natural. We all love our children very much and want to love and care for them as best we can. This is why this site has been so successful in sharing information and support. Rather than bash this site you could try learning more about attachment parenting philosophies and sharing your story. But if you truly don’t feel it’s for you as previously suggested simply move on.

Michelle, I know exactly what you mean. Even during pregnancy people would try to make themselves feel better by telling me how tough it’s going to be. You know the ones “you’ll regret sharing your bed” and “you think you’re tired now – laugh laugh”. I got so fed up that I just didn’t want to hear it. I’d wonder “How is this helpful?” In the end I would change the subject or avoid talking about babies or parenting. It’s because of these experiences I closed up and waited so long to find support. Which is a real shame because I desperately needed the support and still do. Then I found Pinky’s site and am so thankful I did.

By Pinky on Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - 11:54 pm:

Hi Patricia,

Im really sorry I have offended you. It is entirely up to you to make whatever choices you feel are best for your child. There will be plenty of support for you almost everywhere you go if leaving your baby to cry is what you feel happy doing -it is the cultural 'norm'. However, this is a place where support is offered to mums who feel upset by practices such as controlled crying. Did you notice that a lot of mums here have tried controlled crying but were upset so have been looking for other options. Nobody is judging each other but honesty is welcome.

I for one am very aware of the pressures of being a mother -I have 5 kids! And I am far from pretending I am perfect Perhaps this is why my books are best sellers - because they actually address women's feelings with homesty and envourage women to nurture themselves and 'lighten up'.

Thankyou mums for your support of each other and me, and your sensitive replies to Patricia.

I take offence that this site is crap - please read the articles, most of which have been published in national magazines. I believe there is a whole spectrum of what constitutes 'gentle, responsive parenting'. I admit my early posting was blunt- thats how I am in real life - take it or move on. I am gentle with babies, but I am not kindly disposed towards people who arent, nor do I easily tolerate adult selfishness - teh baby is teh littel person here.

I find many people justify 'discipline' of small babies on the basis of religion so I simply pointed out that if this was where this person was coming from (At the time, it sounded like a possibility to me), there were other 'christians' who actually advocated for the baby's needs.

I would never criticise anybody who is not breastfeeding. I am well aware that many women are cheated of this experience due to poor advice or support: it is not always a simple 'choice' to wean early. For most mothers, early weaning brings up intense feelings of grief and hurt. I too am wondering if your defensiveness is a symptom of your own pain? Perhaps what you are feeling is not guilt, but grief.

Nobody can make you feel guilty without your permission, but if you are feeling guilty about your parenting choices, perhaps it is worth examining exactly why you feel this way and whether your guilt is justified. If so, let your feelings be a positive motivational force to change the things that dont feel right, rather than blaming other people for your feelings - these are YOUR feelings and YOUR responsibility.

I am sure your baby loves you very much - this is a natural assumption. Why did you need to question this/ make such a claim?

As for your comment that it is 'healthy for babies to cry an hour a day" -I am interested in the research to back your claims.

I have a file of research about the hazards of leaving babies to cry and am happy to share this. Sometimes babies do cry to release tension but as Amanda mentions, this is best done 'in arms' -there is a big difference between 'leaving a baby to cry' and "allowing a baby to cry" to express pent up emotions.

I am sorry you feel upset but I am not sorry about sharing evidence based information or for honestly expressing myself. Honesty is encouraged here. We all have to make our own choices - but please remember, you are making choices on behalf of your baby. I offer this website without the financial backing or compromise of advertising so that I can support parents who are searching for gentle options. If you cant take the heat - get out of the fire. If you want to explore your options - all of them -with an open mind, we welcome you.

And if you want to slander me or my site, feel free -you could start to look a little crazy around the traps and who knows, it just might be great publicity for mums who need support without being judged for responding to their babies - day and night.

Pinky

By Amanda Lalor on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 08:25 pm:

Patricia, I started reading The Attachment Parenting Book by Dr William Sears today and thought of you. I thought you might find this section valuable so Ive taken the time to post it here for you to read. If you’re further interested you could try you local library and have a read too.
[Attachment parenting is an approach to raising children rather than a strict set of rules. Certain practices are common to AP parents, they tend to breastfeed, hold their babies in their arms a lot, and practice positive discipline, but these are just tools for attachment, not criteria for being certified as an attached parent. So forget the controversies about breast versus bottle, crying it out or not, and which methods of discipline are acceptable, and go back to the basics. Above all, attachment parenting means opening your mind and heart to the individual needs of your baby and letting your knowledge of your child be your guide to making on-the-spot decisions about what works best for both of you. In a nutshell, AP is learning to read the cues of your baby and responding appropriately to those cues.]
Additionally he goes on to explain the Baby B's of Attachment Parenting. Two I found particularly relevant to your post. [1. Belief in baby’s cries - A baby’s cry is a babies language. Crying is a valuable signal designed to ensure the babies survival and to develop the parents caregiving abilities. Babies therefore cry to communicate not to manipulate. The more sensitively you respond, the more baby learns to trust his/her parents and his ability to communicate.
2. Beware of baby trainers - Once you have a baby you may become the target if well-meaning advisers who shower with detachment advice, such as "Let him cry it out," "Get him on a schedule," and "Dont pick her up so much, you’re spoiling her!" This restrained style of baby care, which we dub baby training, is based upon the misguided assumptions that babies cry to manipulate not to communicate and that a baby’s cry is an inconvenient habit that must be broken to help baby fit more conveniently into an adult environment. As you will learn in chapter 10 baby training especially if carried to an extreme can be a lose-lose situation. Baby loses trust in the signal value of his cues, and parents lose trust in their ability to read and respond to their baby’s cues.]

By Kimberley on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 10:27 pm:

Hi Guys,

that's really interesting what you have said above Amanda about AP. Hopefully Patricia has a read and takes it on board to add to her knowledge about parenting.

I had an incident recently with the in-laws relating to different parenting styles. It was pretty horrible actually. Damien, my hubby, is one of five siblings with 4 sisters (the fact that he is the only boy is also an issue in itself, but I'll save that for another day). We went to his parents house for dinner for his sister's birthday and there were 10 other adults and two kids (5 years and 2 years). Elsbeth had been asleep for an hour and a half before we took her there in the car for another hour. So she hadn't had a hold from me for say 2 and 1/2 hours. Plus we'd had a pretty hectic day. So when we got there, everyone wanted to play pass the parcel with Elsbeth. She wasn't too happy with this and wondered where she was and who all of these people were and made distressed sounds like mummy what's going on. So I'd intervene and take her off whoever had her at the time she started crying. This attracted looks all round and still constant requests to hold her. Then we sat down to dinner at around 7.30 (Elsbeth's bed time roughly) and my mother in law suggested putting her on the floor, to which I responded quite firmly 'no she's fine thanks, I'll hold her'. Again more looks. Then later I was talking with my mother in law and she told me not to be too attached to Elsbeth or she won't go to anyone else, to which I responded the whole point of being attached to her is to help her build a strong bond with me and feel secure and then be a more independent child who can go to others, knowing mum is nearby and she is in a safe environment to explore. My mother in law didn't respond to this, which is a common habit of hers when she hears something she doesn't want to. She then went on to say, well as long as you don't have her in bed with you because that's what Maeghan (5 year old) is the result of!!! Poor Maeghan is extremely self conscious about the fact that the adults are criticising her for not wanting to sleep in her own bed. She has only just moved with her parents into a new house after living with my in-laws for 1 year. Her younger brother sleeps in his own room, but is totally obsessed with his collection of dummies, which I think developed while living with the in-laws and the uncertainty this brought as mother and father in law would often second guess parents.
Damien tried to help by holding Elsbeth and fending off the offers to hold her by explaining that she was extremely tired and had been trying to go to sleep for over an hour now.
I feel at a loss and don't feel strong enough to stand up to the 10 of them and defend my parenting style of Elsbeth. I have to say I felt so relieved to read about attachment parenting on this site and decided that it made much more sense to do what felt right and made me and Elsbeth happy.
Damien and I find it difficult to get the point accross to his family that we must put Elsbeth's needs ahead of their own and we feel that we have to be rude to make the point. Should I just be rude to them or try to explain the reason for my style again. I feel like avoiding them but I want Elsbeth to know them and enjoy the love they have for her. It's so difficult to strike a balance. Any advice would be helpful.
Thanks Kimberley

By pinky on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 10:53 pm:

Hey Kimberly- now that you have Parenting By Heart- have a read. there is a section there re unwanted advice. I have also just written a column for Practical Parenting (I think its April -so should be on the shelves soon) re unwanted advice.

Maybe saying something positive re the five year old niece would be kind too and perhaps make a connection with her parents.
Sounds like you handled it all very well- assertive without being aggressive - family come into their own at various ages. It can take a while though.

Pinky

By Kimberley on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 12:01 am:

Thanks for the advice Pinky, will have a look at Parenting by Heart.
cheers
Kimberley

By Amanda Lalor on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 09:00 pm:

Hey Kimberley, You poor thing that sounds like it was a difficult situation. Ive had similar situations. My brother and his wife had commented that when ever they visited Jesse was constantly being held!!! Likewise Jesse has a very strong attachment to me and unless he has time to ‘warm’ to people he doesn’t like being held either. And this is when he’s rested and happy. I can’t even imagine what he would be like if given the same circumstances as poor Elsbeth. I recently refused to go to lunch with my folks who were catching up with other relatives because I couldn’t stand the thought of all the cross examination (good baby bla bla sleeping through the night yet bla bla). In the end I said that I didn’t want Jesse being handled by them because he might catch something (sounds harsh but they do have health issues). Your hubby sounds wonderful though. My husband I feel still hasnt taken "responsibility" for the want of a better word, for our son and when someone is doing something with him (saying playing in a manor we feel is antagonising) he just lets it go for the sake of peace. I tell him its our job to protect him and if it means we ruffle some feathers then so be it. Hes working on it. Its been a difficult situation living with my folks (really just my Mum) and has certainly tested all of us. I am constantly reminding them over things such as over-stimulation etc. Although I have to say if it were my hubbys parents I’m not sure how I would handle it. When I was pregnant I would just simply say "there are many schools of thought bla bla bla” and basically what ever they’re suggesting isn’t one of ours. I got many an odd look and I would go away annoyed or upset (don’t know why really because I was expecting it). But you just do take it personally.
Perhaps you guys could strategise (your hubby and you) that one of you eats first while the other holds Elsbeth and then swap over. Usually I eat last (lol).
Re. the dummies – I hate to lay blame because I do admit that we (as Jesses parents) are ultimately responsible but given our situation my mother would completely ignore my wishes and give him a dummy. I would go out and come home to find him there with it in his mouth. I was then convinced he needed it due to wind. Well as I mentioned to Pinky in another post he did have allot of trouble with “my diet” so perhaps it was true. But anyway in hindsight I feel I was persuaded to use practices that I don’t necessarily agree with but was too inexperienced to stand my ground and pressured to keep the peace (literally).
Poor little Maeghan and her younger brother too. I think what Pinky said is definitely worth a shot.
Its not fair is it! I think its difficult to say which way you should go without knowing the relationship you have with them. For example I would offer my sister in law a section of one of my attachment parenting books to subtly indicate our preferences. However with my Mum direct is best and even then she does what she likes. In the end lets just say its not pretty.
Perhaps as theyre your hubbys parents he should try explaining that you both have chosen a parenting style and would appreciate their support. However I wouldn’t be surprised if it didn’t make any difference (speaking from my own experience).
I guess if it gets bad enough you could always sit down and have full blown discussion about it – Im ad-libbing here but that you both find it difficult to visit feeling the way you do. Im sure the prospect of not seeing Elsbeth as often as they may like might be enough to make your point! Of course Im not suggesting using Elsbeth like a pawn but ultimately this may result if you both feel this uncomfortable visiting due to the way they make you both feel.
Anyway I hope this helps and good luck!
Amanda

By Kimberley on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 10:03 pm:

Hi Amanda,
thank you so much for your advice. It is very tricky knowing what to do and the hard thing is that Damien's parents change the way they treat us depending on who is around, eg if his oldest sister is there, they are pretty difficult but at other times they are better. I do feel really bad for Maeghan and I think I might copy some of Pinky's book that relates to sleeping for her parents like you suggest. Although it is more so my in laws that make her feel bad, but I guess empowering her parents might help them to educate the in laws. I think my mother in laws motivation for interfering is that she is quite a competitive person and even has her own children competing against each other. Hence, she also tries to compete with me and probably thinks she knows a lot more about child rearing than me, although I would have to agree she has a lot more experience (plus she used to do family day care - which she recently gave up to MIND her grandchildren when I was expecting!!), but I don't necessarily agree with her manner with kids and her parenting style which is very sergeant majorish. My main issues are with her lack of respect of mine and Damien's wishes and her desire to put her own needs ahead of Elsbeth's.
I also think it's amazing how easily they forget what it was like for them as new parents.
Your mum sounds like a bit of a handful and it must be hard for you and hour husband living in her house. Did you say you were moving in April, not long now eh...It's a shame she does things without your consent and I know how difficult it can be to bring her around to your way of seeing things. We too were advised to use a dummy, when I didn't actually want to in the first place and guess who advised us to use one, yep the inlaws. I was concerned about Elsbeth sucking her thumb as Damien had done this until he was 12 years old, changing the shape of his thumb and requiring a plate in his mouth with spikes (good for holding Redskins in class). One of his sisters also sucked a finger for many many years and another walked around with and talked through her 'bottle'. In hindsight, which is a wonderful thing, I can see that they probably needed these practices as a type of security blanket and it is just dawning on me why!!!! (you must sleep in your own bed in your own room and brush your teeth and drink all your milk and not get dirty and blah blah blah) I guess it makes sense that Elsbeth will probably not do these things as I choose to raise her in the AP style. Now that she uses the dummy, I do find it helpful in soothing her, although I am always mindful of when to start reducing it's use. I'm not sure if she will just grow out of needing it or if it will get harder to remove it later on. I've been told by the chemist nurse, whose style I like, that it's fine to use for the bedroom, but the early childhood clinic nurse warned against using it at all due to dependence later on, however, she also said no to co-sleeping and tends to come across as strict in her parenting style. I note also that publications I have read by Karitane and Tresillian, sleep training centres, have advised no dummy, but also no feeding to sleep, definitely no co-sleeping, no rocking to sleep etc. They warn that you'll make a rod for your own back. Initially I was terrified of making a rod for my own back but I have realised that the rod is actually looking after Elsbeth 24/7 and keeping her happy which is what I thought I would be in for and welcomed in the first place.
Pinky, do you have any advice about using/not using a dummy and when/how to wean off it or whether to keep using it until Elsbeth deems she doesn't need it anymore? I tend to use it more so for the day sleeps, is this because I put Elsbeth down on her own and leave the room, rather than at night when I am nearby and she is aware of this and is also more tired then? Do you recommend feeding to sleep for day sleeps or lying down with bub initially or using the sling?
Thanks again guys for the advice re inlaws. We're having a do for Damien on the weekend for his B'day and we've decided he will hold Elsbeth and be in charge of holds and that way I can man the kitchen which is another issue with MIL - takes over in there too. I tell myself it will all be worth it!!!
Good luck with your mum Amanda, feel free to vent anytime as I know it definitely helps!! Do you know of any good buys in Queensland, we might end up neighbours at this rate!!!!
cheers
Kimberley

By Amanda Lalor on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 08:29 pm:

Hi Kimberley, At least you have a sense of humour so you’ll fare fine. And you hit the nail on the head in describing the gripes I have with my own mother - lack of respect, putting her own needs before Jesses and forgetting what it was like as new parent. Interesting isn’t it. Must be their generation?
You sound as though you have a very supportive husband and can draw allot of strength from each other. I’m sure this weekends B’day part will go off with out a hitch. At least you know what to expect hey!
I have also the same feelings about the dummy. As you mention about Damien and his sisters self soothing habits - I believe both myself and my brother developed similar habits – mine: a dummy then bottle then pillow...which I still have somewhere (lol). Just on this subject of walking around with a bottle. I read today to watch for and discourage their taking their bottle with them when they become mobile – I guess for this reason.
Anyway back to the subject - As you say if Jesse doesn’t use the dummy he resorts to his thumb. I’ve read that it could just be a new found independence and it will stop after a while. Or it could be that he is now dependant on sucking to go to sleep. The problem there is that one can’t afford to allow the sucking thumb habit to take shape. But you don’t know it’s a habit until it has already established. Silly really!
In the No Cry Sleep Solution - it is recommended to use several methods of signaling sleep. Sucking, Sling, etc. This way they learn that they can go to sleep in different ways. I’ve found that there just doesn’t seem to be allot of information about dummy’s in general, except that they are undesirable. But this information comes from the same sources who recommend crying it out, sleep in a crib, alone etc... So I don’t value it! Sometimes I’ve witnessed Jesse get annoyed with having the dummy and he spits it well before he is actually asleep. Sometimes he also wakes, looks around and goes back to sleep without it. Other times say when we’ve been out shopping and have stopped for lunch he will just close his eyes and drop off. I guess I feel better having seen this because I feel at least I know he can go to sleep with out his dummy. As Im also interested in wearing Jesse (once I get this sling thing sorted out) and hope that he will sleep in his sling to give me some freedom. Although It seems he doesn’t like me to sit down so I’m not sure how this will go. Actually the whole sling thing eludes me really. How long to sling for, what if they don’t like it etc etc.
The thing that sticks in my mind when I think about AP is that as its all done with love and patience anything is achievable because the time is taken for a smooth and least painful transition. Which in some cases takes years (e.g. from moving from the family bed to their own). They just don’t seem to sweat this stuff they just go with the child’s flow. I think I feel that because I don’t know what’s around the corner I need to know how to fix it when I get there...rather than go with the flow. But I suppose I do at some level buy into this whole accidental parenting crap. If I didn’t I could relax more and say what ever, it will be ok.
BTW For day sleeps I currently lay down with Jesse and use the dummy. Mostly I stay with him because I like to be there when he wakes but I can afford to do this because I don’t need be elsewhere. I like to be there when he wakes to greet him with a smile and kiss. I like to think that I’m reinforcing the idea that it’s a nice place to be where he can wake and feel safe and happy. I’m also prepared to do this for years… I’m not sure how/ if the sling thing will fit into this but Ill keep you posted.
Thanks for the support too. Ha! That’s funny… Well I’m becoming pretty well versed in real estate at this rate so I’m your gal when you need me (lol)…
Take it easy
Amanda

By Pinky on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 12:08 am:

Hi Girls, I learned some interesting stuff re dummies at my lactation class tonight. Apparemntly so called "orthodontic" dummies'/ teats do most harm to the shape / development of palate/ teeth alignment and should be discarded by the time the child is two - or more preferably at a year for this reason.

Thumbsucking may be less harmful than dummies depending how the child sucks the thumb - if the thumb is pushing up against the top/ front jaw (Behind the front teeth)it can push teeth forward, if child sucks with the whole thumb in their mouth (more likely with a breastfed child as this is a similar action to breastfeeding as baby draws nipple back into the mouth), this should cause less harm to oral development.

Re dummies, the main factors which I mention in 100 Ways to Calm the Crying are:
Risk of nipple confusion (with breast) if used before 6 weeks.
There are no calories in dummies - I have seen babies with slow weight gain do fabulously when dummies have been 'weaned' and the breast offered for this comfort sucking.

I am sure it all depends on how ofen dummies are used - ie just at bedtime, and only until baby has dozed off sounds reasonable to me, but they can sneak up on you so that you stretch out feeds, are used to help baby 'self soothe' rather than being given 'mothering' -this is certainly not what you are doing as you cuddle your baby with his dummy, but just a consideration for others who may wonder about dummy use.

My first baby had a dummy as I had sore nipples ( probably thrush but poor advice at the time), but by the time he was about eight months, he would spit the dummy out (he only had it at bedtime at this age), and grope at my shirt for the breast so it was an easy wean from the dummy back to the breast, then he gradually weaned himself from teh breast at around 18 months while I was pregnant and supply low . I did find teh dummy a nuisance when he slept as a little baby as he woudl wake every time it slipped out of his mouth, but when I caught on and took it out as soon as he fell asleep he seemed to sleep better without the confusion of searching for it/ getting upset.

I think I felt much more comfortable with subsequent babies about just going with the flow and allowing my babies to set the pace/ comfort suck when ever they wanted -I figured it was much easier than a dummy which seemed to have been associated with disturbed sleep.

I actually think many children (there are always exceptions and I dont want to 'motherblame") who suck thumbs constantly til a ripe old age may be a bit stressed/ need more mothering and can be encouraged to stop by very gentle means - more cuddles, physical contact, noticing when they are bored/ tired and offering comfort/ alternative attention just as you would help a toddler wean from the breast - gradually with love.

The whole notion of "accidental parenting/ self soothing" is so undermining. When I ask at classes how does your baby sleep? / get back to sleep when they wake, even mums who wouldnt dare breastfeed back to sleep (why ever not its incredibly easy?), are patting so it seems more natural for it to be the rare baby who actually needs no attention - who cares whether you pat/ cuddle/ breastfeed? Eventually you will have a secure, happy child who wil move to independence because they feel secure - the best gifts we can give our kids are roots and wings.

Pinky

By Kimberley on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 03:04 pm:

Hi Amanda
that's interesting re the advice in No Cry Sleep Solution about using several cues for signalling sleep, I'll try to work on this. I find that at home ít's easier than when we're out and we tend to rock Elsbeth to sleep if we're out. I also plan to encourage Damien to comfort Elsbeth to sleep a bit more so we have another option.
I've started using the across the body sling and Elsbeth likes it, I let her keep her arms out and she faces outward at the moment, I haven't tried her sleeping in it yet, but maybe we can work up to it. It's great that you stay with Jesse while he sleeps, it just amazes me that we are not encouraged to parent in this way by the community in general and most of all health professionals. People expect us to keep on doing everything as we always did, even though we have a little one to care for. The state of my house alone speaks for itself. Sometimes I don't even have a cuppa, but I'm glad I found this site as having a chat is a treat and reassuring.
I also had another thought re the feeding lying down. Sometimes I wait for the let down and then start feeding, or even start feeding sitting up and once they have started lay down. Good luck!
Hi Pinky, it's interesting about the problems with dental development from the orthodontic dummies and less problems from thumb sucking if the whole thumb is in the mouth. Hopefully my bub will not want the dummy by 8 months like your child. Thanks for the encouragement re creating a secure environment and a secure little human being.
cheers
Kimberley

By Amanda Lalor on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 08:21 pm:

Hi Kimberley and Pinky,
I am really looking forward to this sling workshop and to receiving the Baby Book by Dr W Sears which contains allot of info (or so Im lead to believe) on sling positions and baby wearing. Do you find Elsbeth lets you sit down while she is in the sling? I couldn’t quite get my arm sling thing that you suggested Pinky to work today.
I know what you mean - if I was only this confident from the beginning I think I could have done things just a little differently. I didnt even think to challenge what I was being told. I went into hospital believing in AP and left totally confused and lost. Obviously because I didnt really understand or see how this regimented and unresponsive style of parenting was supposed to work and further more it made me unhappy.
Took Jesse for his weigh in today and a Mum was there with a little one in toe and a baby on the change table. The baby was crying and it appeared as though the mother was completely desensitised to him/her (?) cries. She continued to write on the bit of paper when I would have picked Jesse up and continued writing with him in my arms. Strange indeed. I wondered about how this baby must have been feeling.
Anyway Im looking for some advice on Jesse. Hes the sort of baby that was very very aware even when he was tiny. Now hes older he asserts himself freely (perhaps too much). Lately he has been putting his mouth on my face, or chin. I cant tell if hes trying to kiss me of just bare down on his gums? We always play kisses and I give him passionate kisses and hugs if you know what I mean so I thought perhaps this is his way of showing me in return. Although when he gets tired he holds my head with his arms wrapped around my neck sometimes grabs my hair and starts to bite while crying and groaning. Well tonight when he was unwinding for bed, I offered him a top up and he just lost it. He was rubbing at his face as if something was irritating it, crying intensely. When I picked him up and held him to my chest he started that biting, pulling and clawing. I mean what do you make of that. Is this a tantrum due to frustrations of the day? I changed breasts because he likes the left better and he stopped but when it ran out it started up again. So I gave him the other. It eased but he kept crying so I gave him the dummy, he settled so I layed him down and he dropped off. I really dont know what happened? I thought I cant wait to get this sling because perhaps he is doing to much and by being in the sling he can relax and take it in more slowly.
Ive often thought how nice it would be to breast feed during the day to sleep but I think I killed this early on by doing what I was told was correct and taking him off as he was sleepy to wrap and put to bed (although I just nursed him until he woke again). So I think he thinks that breast is for feeding only and that if he wants to go to sleep he uses the dummy. Or rather if I had an endless supply of milk perhaps he could take in until he drops off. Unless I wait until he is absolutely exhausted there doesnt seem to be a way of him just sucking my breast to go to sleep rather than the dummy. He just gets cross when the milk runs out and loses it. Help!
Amanda

By Pinky on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 08:48 pm:

He could be giving you kisses if hes being gentle/ the mood is playful/ loving.

The biting after a feed sounds more like frustration - ??? could he be teething? - feel his gums.

Often something cool to chew on helps - a cold wet washer placed in the feezer, then give it to him to chew on could be soothing for sore gums.

The dummy may feel better to 'chew' on than a boob if his gums are sore.

It does sound like the dummy is his sleep cue so he possibly wonders why you are trying to feed him at bedtime. A tip to get him to suck more is to pop him on the breast while he is asleep if you feel you need more sucking to stimulate more milk flow (you dont have to lie down .

Pinky

By Kimberley on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 10:36 pm:

Hi Amanda, Elsbeth doesn't really let me sit for long with the sling. I think she enjoyed that it meant she could have a front row seat on my travels about the house. I positioned her facing forward and kept a hand on her to keep her steadied. I found in hospital that I was pretty much encouraged to keep Elsbeth in the crib and not with me. This was very impractical as with the caesar I was attached to the bed the first night (IV and catheter still in) and when bub cried I couldn't get up to pick her up. The nurses were busy that night and took 20 minutes to answer my buzzer, by which time I had managed to reach over and pick up Elsbeth. They then had the nerve to tut-tut me for moving!! Elsbeth cried a lot until my milk came in as she was hungry and a nurse took her out so I could sleep. I could still hear her crying and demanded they bring her back in and said that she has been with me for 9 months and I'm sure she needs to be near me now. On saying this, another nurse who was a dear thing who had had children of her own said to me that I could put Elsbeth into the bed with me and that with all the SIDS knowledge, everyone was too scared to do what came naturally. It made me really happy being able to do that and Elsbeth and I managed to get some sleep. I think hospitals have come a long way from the nursery days, but still have a long way to go. Especially by not allowing partners to stay overnight.
It's bizarre how that mother didn't pick her baby up who was crying, they say the second child doesn't get as much attention as the first, but still you wonder why she didn't respond.
It's good to hear Jesse is an assertive little chap. I've noticed Elsbeth has also been trying to eat my cheeks and chin lately, and pulls at my face and hair quite aggressively. My brother's son who is 7 months old has recently been through this over the past 2 weeks and has actually cut some teeth. He has always been a placcid baby until now, but he was waking a lot at night, and is apparently a lot happier now that the teeth are through. I've checked E's gums but they don't seem to be red, but I think she is teething as she's dribbling a lot and tends to rub her gums with her hands (read whole fist) or a toy. I'll try the cold face washer also. Sometimes I have also found that she loses it when I try to give her a feed when putting her to bed for the night (that sounds good but it's until she wakes up really) and she won't have a bar of it. She seems to just want to go to sleep. I then give her a top up when I go to bed which sees her through for a few hours I think?? cheers Kimberley

By Amanda Lalor on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 08:43 pm:

Hi and thanks guys! I felt his gums and on the bottom where the canine teeth are it appears a little red with a white spot on top. They also feel a little rough as if I can feel where the teeth are (perhaps going to come through). Does this make sense? But I’m no expert so I’m not sure.
Hmmm He has also started to screech. Its quite distressing when he’s biting, clawing and screaming at me. New behaviour that I don’t quite know how to handle.
Yes I think that’s what he thinks too “hey Mum what I’m not hungry I’m tired get this thing out of my mouth and where is my dummy” lol… I’m not sure if I’m game to try him when he’s asleep because previously (when my supply wasn’t great) if I didn’t get a let down quickly enough he would wake up and cry. I guess as long as I have a full breast it should be ok? Tricky one huh!
I’m definitely going to check in with you once I start wearing Jesse. It sounds as though Elsbeth has a great time up there. It gets very tiring carrying Jesse as he’s almost 8kgs (although great for the arms lol). I know you mentioned earlier that Elsbeth was on the higher end of the percentile so you know what that’s like I realise.
I had a Caesar too! I cant remember the first night. I think they took Jesse from me too that night. But after that he stayed with me and actually slept in my bed. They were too busy anyway to notice. Allot went on during my stay to undermine my confidence and change how I thought I was supposed to respond to Jesse. I think it was on the fifth night or something a nurse insisted she take him if he didn’t sleep so that I could get some rest. I remember feeling pressured to take him to the nursery. I stayed around and looked at how they cared for the babies. Only two women on to care for so many babies. Although they didn’t let them cry without attention which made me feel a little better. I signed him in and left. Tears streaming down my face on my way back to my room. I got maybe one to two hours sleep (after crying myself to sleep) before they buzzed for me to come collect him. I was glad to have him back. Ive often thought that it would be wonderful to have an AP hospital and staff. How nice would that be. Loads of support. I also hated that hubby couldn’t stay over. It would have really helped me and I felt quite desperate. I couldn’t wait to go home. I nearly spiralled into depression when they said I had an evening discharge, I begged to go in the morning. One nurse took pity on me and helped me with my stiches removal (when the OB had planned to do it) and organised Jesses hearing and paediatric checks for the morning so I could go. It was Steve’s late Mums birthday that day so we called into her grave to introduce her to Jesse! Very emotioanl day actually.
That’s interesting that Elsbeth and your brothers boy are/were behaving similarly. Kind of makes me feel better that Jesses not unusual… Jesse has been drooling and biting down on everything for a while now. Sometimes I think he’s going to swallow his whole fist. I just figured it was normal behaviour. What I have noticed recently (apart from what appears to be aggression) is that he looks as though he’s chewing his gums? I can’t really describe it. And at night when he wakes and I comfort him he grabs my hand and tries to bite it before drifting off again. This morning when he woke the first thing he wanted to do was bite so I got him his special cloth rag bear with knots in it especially for this occasion - he attacked it with gusto lol. If you want to look at them for Elsbeth let me know and Ill give you the website address. Perhaps he is teething.
I had heard that sucking the breast could be painful and that may be the reason as you suggested Pinky that he may have cried while trying to feed.
You know a while back I thought he was teething and went to get some teething powder (as advised??) and left with a homeopathic teething blend. Well he was sick and had a watery poo the next morning. Obviously didn’t agree with him. I must say I thought homeopathic remedies were known for their non toxic low dosage easy effect on the system but with Jesse it wasn’t working for him. So I didn’t use it again. I’m not sure how to help him other than as suggested and use the cold washer to soothe his inflamed gums.
BTW Good luck tomorrow night Kimberley and happy B’day to Damien.
Cheers Amanda

By Kimberley on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 10:37 pm:

Thanks Amanda,
it sounds like Jesse's teeth are coming through, how exciting! I can imagine it does get tiring carrying Jesse as Elsbeth is about 8 and a half kg and she's long (Damien's 6foot3 hence the length) and tends to kind of dangle - no need to hang on mum's got me. It is great for the arms though, as you say.
You had a caesar too? If you're like me you weren't expecting one, I was disappointed but it seemed the only option at the time. I've done a bit of reading on the net about caesars and ways to avoid having one next time, although I guess it may not be possible. There's a kit you can buy which teaches you how to prepare the pelvic floor amongst other things. I can look it up if you're interested. I guess I'll try to work out next time what my best options are. It's a shame the hospital reduced your confidence about caring for Jesse. I also had difficulty with one nurse who made a big deal about Elsbeth losing more than 10% of her birth weight (it was only 15 grams more). She made me feel guilty that my milk hadn't come in and said quite threateningly that she would put Elsbeth on formula, so I tried the electric pump. It was horrible and I ended up a blubbering mess. I can now empathise with cows can you believe and I've started drinking soy!! My milk ended up coming in not long after I got upset - the nurse just blamed my hormones rather than acknowledging that her manner was a bit full on. I have to say learning to breast feed was extremely difficult, but I had a great nurse on the night shifts who gave practical advice and encouragement. She was just like Vonne off All Saints, although her name was Bron.
I'm very sorry to hear that Steve's mum passed away and not getting to know Jesse. That must be sad for you guys.
Re the teething, I've used Bonjela cream which tastes like licorice. I don't know if it helps, but have tried it a couple of times when Elsbeth seems really bothered by her gums.
Thanks for the good wishes for tomorrow. I'm a bit nervous and will be very relieved when it's over. I don't know what to expect which bothers me. Anyway, will keep you posted.
cheers
Kimberley

By Kimberley on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 05:00 pm:

Hi Amanda
just letting you know everything went well on Saturday with Damien's family behaving well, safety in numbers hey. When Elsbeth needed a break I just took her away and gave her a feed or change or just a cuddle. She enjoyed the attention and Damien and I pretty much held her and let her interact with everyone from our arms.
cheers Kimberley

By Amanda Lalor on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 08:11 pm:

Hi Kimberley, Thats great! Im glad it worked out and sounds like you even enjoyed yourselves. Good for you.
Take care Amanda

By Michelle Fulcher on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 02:01 pm:

Hi everyone,
I've just gotten over a nasty cold and now TJ has come down with it. He has been waking every 45 minutes all night long for the past week or so (with maybe one stretch of around 2 hours). I'm at my wits end! It just took me an hour to pat him down in the cot! Argh!!! I even tried bringing him into our bed last night for about an hour, but the whole hour I was awake, conscious of whether he would wake up again... Poor old David has been sleeping out on the lounge which is very uncomfortable as he is quite tall, so we are all a bit of a mess at the moment.So, I'm still in my PJ's at 2 pm. I'm thinking tonight I might just sleep with him in the rocking chair in his room. It won't be comfy but maybe I'll get some sleep that way. If anybody has any suggestions I'd love them. I'm not really expecting any though, I think I just have to wait it out and try to get him back on track next week.... just wanted to have a bit of a whinge really....
Thanks for listening
Michelle

By Amanda Lalor on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 09:24 pm:

Oh Michelle, that sounds awful. You poor things.
Do you have a sling? Maybe you could wear him while rocking in the chair? Sorry I dont have much to offer, I havent had to deal with a situation like that yet (touch wood). Maybe if you email Pinky direct she may have some remedies you could try? Anyway just a thought. At least know Ill be thinking of you all tonight. Hope you get a better nights sleep soon, if not tonight! Hang in there...
Amanda
BTW maybe do a web search to see if you can find something to help!
Found these: http://forums.naturalparenting.com.au/archive/index.php/t-1739.html and
http://forums.naturalparenting.com.au/archive/index.php/t-406.html and
http://forums.naturalparenting.com.au/archive/index.php/f-26.html
got them from http://forums.naturalparenting.com.au/archive/index.php/f-26.html

By Kimberley0. on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 09:49 pm:

Hi Michelle
it sounds like you guys are having a pretty difficult time right now. I don't know of any way to reduce the flu symptoms except maybe a warm bath in a steamy bathroom to help clear TJ's nose/throat. I've been increasing the amoutn of time that Elsbeth spends in our bed recently and at first, I wasn't sleeping well as I was aware of her and she didn't seem to be sleeping too well either, however, more recently we have both started sleeping better as I think we're used to each other's presence. Maybe the more TJ is in with you, the more he and you will be able to sleep. And maybe David will also sleep better. Hopefully the flu will pass quickly for TJ and your sleeping will get back to normal soon.
good luck and wishing you all sleep.
Kimberley

By pinky on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 11:24 pm:

Hi Michelle,
Your poor things. I always think the worst thing about a sick bub is that they cant tell you whats happening for them - well not exactly anyway.

Re blocked noses - if TJ is in the cot , you could try propping the head of the cot up on phone books to keep his head a bit elevated. A sling would come in handy here at least for some rest during the day.

Steam in a vaporiser -ask at your chemist whether eucalpyptus is appropriate for babies/ ages etc -otherwise just use the vaporiser with water to steam the room ( out of reach of little people).

Steam in a shower or a warm bath in a warm room.

For blocked sinuses/ noses - massage with a finger each side of the nose from inside the bridge of the nose (between the eyes), down each side of the nose, following the sinuses, outwards towards the temples. Try this on yourself to get the right touch -it really helps unblock the sinuses.

? are you breastfeeding - if so some extra vitamin C in your own diet -it would probably help with your recovery anyway, otherwise ask your pharmacy/ health carer what Vit C is suitable for babies .

Re sleep -I used to find it helpful to arrange our bed so I was propped up with good back support / pillows then would sit up in bed and lie back with my unwell babies against my chest -with lots of space around me (sofas/ chairs arent really safe if you fall asleep). Take care with this idea if you have big boobs that a bub could snuggle into too deeply.

I would probably cuddle/ rock him to sleep while he is sick, rather than patting him as he is lying down - the rocking chair sounds good for this, then you could gently lay him into bed .

If he gets miserable he will just get a blocked nose/ headache anyway - dont worry too much about getting out of your normal routine - they do get back to it when they are well - but lots of cuddles are the best medicine.

Great web links Amanda.Thanks.

Sit and cuddle as much as you can during the day to conserve your own energy, and if you have any support people living near - ask for practical help.

Be gentle on yourself. If you feel concerned at all, dont think twice about visiting the doctor - remember, they have to pay their kids school fees so are happy to have you keep them in work.

Hang in there -I hope you all feel better soon,
Pinky

By Michelle Fulcher on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 07:40 pm:

Thank you all! It is so wonderful to be able to come to a place to get such practical and kind support! I think we are other the worst of it now (TJ and I that is- David is still a misery as he has now come down with it!) so, we'll see how tonight goes. Last night he only got up every 2 hours or so (ONLY?!) hopefully things will continue to improve.

Its interesting you know, a lot of your suggestions happened naturally for us- like last night I lightly traced a finger over his face (around the sinusy areas) and he actually fell asleep with a little smile on his face! It was very peaceful and sweet.

I wish I had've thought of sitting up in bed to co-sleep, as that would've worked well (Don't worry, I didn't sleep in the rocker). Re- big boobs, I'll be able to breastfeed him and let him fall asleep in my lap like I usually do during the night in the rocker, if I recline a little they don't take up THAT much room LOL.

I am lucky in that I have both a wonderful mum AND a wonderful mother-in-law, who came over on her day off work and very happily took TJ off my hands. It is nice to be able to provide them with the opportunity to spend some time together!

Thank you so much for the links Amanda, I had a quick look yesterday and came across naturalparenting.com but didn't have time to find what I was looking for (got absorbed in some other articles though!) so thank you! now I won't have to go searching all over.

I think that the other reason it took me so long to get him to sleep yesterday (I had the car today, so we just went for a drive) is because he is on the brink of dropping from 3 to 2 naps.

HAHA - "Sit and cuddle as much as you can during the day to conserve your own energy" I would so love to do that, but even SICK my little man is a ball of energy!! I laughed this morning when I got him out of bed, I put him on the lounge room floor to change his nappy and afterwards he actually stayed there! for five whole minutes!!! I was in the kitchen watching him and I was like 'wow, I've never seen him lie so still without being asleep'. Then all of a sudden he rolled over and he was off, crawling everywhere, into everything like his usual self... it was almost as if he woke from a daydream, thinking 'whoops, I forgot, I've got lots of things to do!'
Ahh, he certainly keeps me busy!
Thank you all again for your lovely comments and warm hearted support! I hope I can reciprocate for you guys sometime.
Sleep well
Michelle

By Pinky on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 12:31 am:

Boy! You have an active one!
I guess its a pretty good sign that he's on the mend. That kind of baby has to be really 'poorly' to sit and cuddle - ya know this is what I so wish to get across to mums of little bubs - that it really is only a very few months and you actually have to chase them for a cuddle - so enjoy every sweet cuddle when you can.
Soundslike your mum and mother inlaw are gems - hand TJ over and conserve your energy!
Happy Easter.
Pinky

By Jo Duffy on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 09:25 pm:

Hi there,

I've just started using my sling for sleeping during the day for my 11 month old and it works a dream. It took us a while to negotiate what's comfortable for him but it's worth it. I can read a book/mag, go online or go for a walk while he's asleep so I'm not confined to the bedroom looking at the same four walls!! It's also the absolute BEST feeling in the world having his head asleep on my chest. Persevere with the slings girls it's worth it.

What are the Safe and sound rolls??

Jo

By Amanda Lalor on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 08:06 pm:

Hi Jo, Gosh lets see if I can explain the Safe and Sound roll without further confusing you or myself lol. If you can imagine rolling a narrow towel at either end (so both ends rolled towards the middle)and being able to fasten it with velcro to secure it from moving and then placing your baby on their side between the rolls it stops them from rolling onto their face or back. It makes sense when I read it back but hopefully it will make sense for you. Cheers Amanda

By Michelle on Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 07:21 pm:

Taliver has been a real challenge today.
Since monday he has had a fever on and off over mon, tues and wed but today he has seemed fine except for the fact that he is really whinney and won't nap.
I did get him down twice and then 10 mins later he was awake and wouldn't settle (and then was really whingy because he was tired!).
He's been biting, pulling my hair and even kicking me when I tried to change his nappy!
So, eventually I got fed up, called DH at work and asked him to come home and he's been an angel ever since!!

Any suggestions on what I can do about biting/pulling hair? sometimes I think he might just be teething, but he also seems to do it when hes tired or wants my attention. I DONT want to encourage this behavior.
Thanks
Michelle

By Amanda on Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 08:08 pm:

Hi Michelle, Jesse does the same thing. Sounds like due to his fever and general unwellness its difficult for him to relax and settle for nap/sleep which in turn compounds it as hes now over tired and taking it out on you. When Jesse bites and pulls my hair I TRY to express to him that it hurts Mummy. It didn’t mean allot when he was younger but these days he does seem to understand a bit more. As Taliver is almost a year old he may understand this more. I think distraction may be helpful. Perhaps do something soothing, take a shower together or bath, a walk or drive, or as you did call DH. Avoid any over or all stimulation. I can’t say what will happen in the future because Jesse is our one and only but I wouldn’t make to much it. I see this kind of behaviour similar to tantrums. They can’t express with words how they are feeling so they demonstrate in a primal kind of way - like little monkeys. Jesse screams and scratches sometimes to. The kicking is new UNFORTUNATELY for my breasts who often get a beating come nappy changes. I try staying calm (but confess I do lose it and get very cross at times). Try telling him you understand and want to help but also that what he is doing is hurtful. I think that he would feel from you what you are saying even though he doesn’t understand the words yet. Jesse can read my eyes. We’ve had moments where he has hurt me and my eyes show something that he immediately understands. I wonder what’s causing Talivers extreme behaviour. What for signs I guess and try not to take it personally. Hang in there Michelle, sounds like you knew exactly what to do, call for reinforcements. Hope this helps, Amanda

By Michelle on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 07:48 pm:

"Sounds like due to his fever and general unwellness its difficult for him to relax and settle for nap/sleep which in turn compounds it as hes now over tired and taking it out on you."

How did you know? That is exactly right because today, he's had no fever, no teething and has been a little angel!(Well, almost!) He didn't bite me, kick me or pull my hair once (I even had my hair loose!) so obviously he was only doing it to communicate his frustration and unwellness as you say.

I hope Jesse doesn't keep it up for you too much longer. It sounds like you are establishing a good line of communication with him, so that he can begin to comprehend your point of view (I've heard that empathy doesn't develop until much later, but the more you try to explain it to them the quicker it comes).

Thank you...sometimes it just feels good to get it off my chest, you know?

By Amanda on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 09:29 pm:

Hey-ya, That’s great! I’m glad Talivers feeling better. Its awful isn’t it that they have to go through all of this and cant express to us how they’re feeling - except for demonstrating via biting and so on. Yeah Jesse is getting better or perhaps I think I’m getting better at reading him and therefore responding. It’s tricky and I try but hey some days I’ve got fog head and well lets just say he’s frustrated - with me! Really…HOW MUCH LATER lol. Oh well as you say in time he will understand. Sure, I’m most happy to return the support and friendship. Take care Amanda

By Kimberley on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 08:55 pm:

Hey girls
glad Taliver's feeling better, Michelle. It's funny how they let you know when things aren't right. I've found Elsbeth gets frustrated and cranky at times, particularly when she's tired. I have found distracting her helps as you've tried Amanda. She's been biting me lately when feeding, ouch!! (reminds me of the early days when establishing feeding and poor attachment though not as bad thank goodness). It doesn't seem related to teething (as she did this when teething in the past) but is as though she's telling me she wants a drink, and now! She seems to be developing more personality lately and telling me how she feels. I'll just have to keep up with her efforts to communicate eh. Kimberley

By Michelle on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 03:02 pm:

Amanda, I think they learn empathy about the same age they learn to lie (i.e that not everyone sees the world how they see it, and so not everyone knows what they know) which I think is around 4.

Sometimes Taliver goes through biting while nusing phases as well, but they never last very long and sometimes this is the only way I know that he IS teething. But usually I go "ouch" (instinctive reaction) and he pulls off, looks at me and sees that I am hurt, and then he bursts into tears (which is quite sweet really). Then if he keeps it up, I start ending the feed when he bites and he soon learns that if he wants the privledge of booby, then he has to treat them with respect *L*. Its not like he does it to hurt me, but at the same time, I want him to learn that it does hurt me, before it becomes a habit or a game or anything.

When Taliver was learning to breastfeed, he used to pull on my nipple a lot and my lactation consultant told me it was because he wanted the milk to come faster...and that calves headbutt their mothers udders in the same way *LOL*. Unfortunately for us, pulling or biting just tends to make the milk flow slower because we tense up with the pain. Oh well don't worry 'this too shall pass'

Michelle

By Kimberley on Monday, June 13, 2005 - 01:09 pm:

Hi Michelle
thanks, I think you're right and Elsbeth seems to be teething again (lots of drool!!) How cute that calves headbutt their mums. I have to say that I've changed to soy milk since starting BFing as I really feel for cows - imagine being pumped for milk when it's there to nourish and nurture their young. Although, reading Amanda's info about soy products and leaching calcium from bones I'm not sure if soy is the answer. Will have to give coconut milk a try. cheers Kimberley

By Michelle on Monday, June 13, 2005 - 06:30 pm:

I've also heard (and this old wives tale is such complete crap that it makes me laugh) that if you drink too much soy milk it can make you have big breasts.
Yes, I was given soy milk as a baby (for about 6 months I think) and now I have big breasts....LOL

When I was in Vanuatu on my honeymoon, on one of the cultural tours, they told us that if a mother died in childbirth and the baby survived, they used to carve coconuts into the shape of a breast/nipple and peirce a tiny hole in the end and feed the baby that way! Interesting.

By Kimberley on Monday, June 13, 2005 - 08:21 pm:

I'll have to keep drinking soy milk then!!!lol
That's sweet about the carved coconuts.

By Amanda on Monday, June 13, 2005 - 09:30 pm:

Hey-ya girls! That is cute Michelle about the calves. Jesse used to put his hand on the side of my breast and push like pumping it would help lol.
I have found what you say to be true in that Jesse bites and tugs when the let down wont come quickly enough.
Its interesting reading on the Soy...we stopped buying it after we learned more about it.
Jesse loves the coconut milk. As you said previously Kimberley it can have a strong taste but what Ive found is it depends on how you make what ever it is your making.
Oh yeah and now that Jesses little tooth HAS appeared – my! how sharpe it is! When he bites it hurts ALLOT. Hes almost drawn blood. Im not sure how to handle this if he starts to bite for the fun of it instead of just biting due to the sensation of teething. Ill see how he goes. Wish me luck…

By Kimberley on Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 05:18 am:

Congrats on the tooth!!

By Amanda on Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 05:50 pm:

Thank you!! Looks very cute...

By bobby smith on Friday, July 1, 2005 - 09:40 pm:

Hi i have a baby georgia who is 3mths i have also been told i am spoiling her and that she needs to cry to sleep to learn independence or she will be clingy and shy,i havent listned and she is much easier co sleeping and feeding when she wants,although i had to give up breastfeeding through a problem with milk drying up and no help from outsiders,I cant believe some things you get told i cant understand how the world has come to believing that we must force our children into what we want instead of who they are.This is a great site and will be making it a favourite!!

Thank you.

By pinky on Friday, July 1, 2005 - 10:42 pm:

welcome Bobby.

mums (and dads) who want to cuddle their babies are most welcome and supported here!

You are so right about forcing babies into what we want, instead of who they are - what a strong and wise mummy you are.

We cant force independence - we need to give our kids strong roots before they can develop wings - when they feel safe and secure, they will be more confident to venture forth ( not the other way!).

Are you feeling sad about the breastfeeding not working out? Angry/ disappointed that you werent given the right help? Hugs.

You have a lovely way of mothering and should be enjoying every sweet cuddle just as you are - otherwise what is the point of having a baby - that is why they were made so delicious - so we would cuddle and love them.

A good answer for the critics is - "I am not spoiling her - I am teaching her to love."

Pinky

By bobby smith on Saturday, July 2, 2005 - 11:06 am:

yes i do feel sad and dissapointed but i realise that in the end rather than have an unhappy baby due to trying and trying to fix the problem she is happy on the bottle and next time around i will do things different with breastfeeding and taking more time i think being a young first time mum made me listen to others at first instead of my own judgemeant,scared of making a mistake i now realise that if i bring her up to be loved and happy she will become her own individual person.
I do wonder though do all the people out there who use the natural method still teach there children under no uncertain terms about being polite and well mannered.I want georgia to be a good kid not rude or naughty which i have seen happen to my friends children who uses this method,neither children are polite and cant be away more than 5feet away from their parents its so bad they are being home schooled its not that they are naughty but are so clingy and rude,They have slept with her and done all the same things that are practised on this site and i would love to know how i can let georgia understand that i love her will always be there, but there are other people out there she can depend on and trust.
I wont her to be outgoing and polite,if any can share how they helped teach their child the impotance of this id love to know?

Thanks again.

By Michelle on Saturday, July 2, 2005 - 02:09 pm:

Thats a good question Bobby! I think clingyness can be a personality trait, but you can encourage your child to feel safe and secure while you are not around by not being 'clingy' yourself. Even though sometimes we do feel uneasy about leaving our babies with someone (especially for the first time!) I have found that if I pretend that I am confident he will be find, and say goodbye to him everytime I leave with a smile and a quick hug, he picks up on my feelings and relaxes. If you make a big fuss that your leaving and that you'll really miss them and show your 'nerves' they pick up that something is wrong.
That being said, since your bub is only 3 months old, I would certainly resist any pressure to leave her with anyone this early on. I remember from day 1, my in-laws kept telling me that they would babysit so that I could 'have a break' and it gave me the shits big time! Whenever I did leave him, I fretted about it and it wasn't much of a 'break' at all! Now that he is older (1 yr now) I find it easier, and I do enjoy some time without him and he hardly ever cries when I leave (he's only done it twice, with his daycare lady who he goes to 1 day a week).

Taliver took his first steps the other day too BTW everyone! But I'm finding with his new independance also comes....his first tantrums!!! Darn it, I thought those ear shattering screams of the early days had well and truly left us, but alas.... if I don't know what he is trying to tell me, or if I'm a little too slow to respond, or if I take him into the bedroom for a nap, he starts screaming and trying to thow himself on the ground. Sometimes I am able to re-direct his attention, and it only lasts a few seconds, but other times it takes a few minutes before he calms down (usually when he is tired). Any ideas what to do anyone?
Michelle

By pinky on Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 01:01 pm:

Bobby first -it is great that you are looking around and trying to work out what parenting styles seem relevant to you - and the pros and cons of these.

Michelle - great tips on clingyness - we do need to help babies feel secure before we leave tem and there are natural stages of separation anxiety that are totally developmental - Bobbi you would benefit from reading 100 Ways to Calm the Crying, to learn about these - it's not JUST about crying.

I think some parents do get mixed up about what is 'gentle, respectful discipline' that communicates mutual respect between parent and child and what is simply letting children 'rule the roost'. I'm not sure what you mean by 'rudeness' but I believe very strongly that it is our responsibility as parents to teach our kids social skills so that they can be liked and included and get on in the world - manners are very high on this list - we can model good manners and we can use 'teachable moments' to help kids understand how to be polite.

I did once ask one of mine ( then two and a half) "what's the magic word?"(meaning I was waiting for "please") He replied -"you dont need it, just open the fridge door"

Your friends kids sound as tho tey are 'schoolage' but just as an example - it is natural for children under 3 to 'interrupt ' for instance - they havent yet developed good impulse control - (the frontal lobe of the brain, which affects this hasnt developed sufficiently, so its about as realistic to expect as expecting a 6 month old to walk) ,and often the very time that mums' attention is diverted by an adult conversation is the time that they will subconsciously or deliberately vie for that attention. These incidents (with a good friend who understands what mum is trying to teach) can be great teachable moments without making it a big deal as children grow aware - ie "I am listening to Bobbi, it will be your turn next" - then make sure to turn to the other person (even if you cut the adult conversation short to make sure the child learns he will get a turn), ignore the child's interruption until you have 'finished', then keep your word and listen to the child (this part is really important).

It is good to teach kids to say, 'excuse me please' when they really need to interrupt and 'reward ' them for this by thanking them for being polite and listening to the child - you can qualify that you will give them a short turn for remembering their manners but you really do need to let the other person finish what they are saying (its best not to ignore totally just in case there is a dangerous situation they are trying to tell you about).

So much of childrens behaviour depends on the context and environment - they are unlikely to ever be 'seen and not heard' and teaching needs to be ongoing. It is also unrealistic to expect to have long uninterrupted chatts or phone calls without setting up an activity for little ones first.

At the same time - we shouldnt let our need for approval by our child override teaching them that we are the parent and it is our job to set limits to keep them safe.

Don't worry, Bobbi, because you are bonding beautifully with your baby, you will know when she is ready to leave, when she is ready to have some small limits and when she can learn manners.

Understanding your child's stage of development is the key to realistic expectations - there are differences in readiness, temperament and parenting styles, but we can gently teach consideration and respect without resorting to shaming. smacking or punishment.

Michelle -Re tantrums these are usually an expression of frustration -speech makes a huge difference -imagine being in a foreign land wanting food or drink and not being able to communicate this. They are affected by several factors, including tiredness , hunger/low blood sugar etc.

See my article "Tantrums, When to Say "NO" under Little Child.

The article "No Praise, No Blame" is helpful when we consider gentle ways to enlist cooperation for toddlers and older kids.

Pinky

By Michelle on Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 02:15 pm:

Thanks very much Pinky!

I'm laughing so hard at your story about the 'magic word'!

By bobby smith on Monday, July 4, 2005 - 09:02 am:

Hi there again, what i mean by rudeness is that her little boy 5years, when you see him and say hello he never says a thing back,he picks who he likes who he talks to and she allows him to do it,he ignores all sorts of people not just me(lol).
I find it very rude and his mum just says hes an individual and he can decide who he likes and dislikes i understand he is his own person but i think he sould learn to be polite however he feels about the other person.Also he has never been looked after by anyone else because of this if either his mother or father leave the room or step more than five feet away from him he gets angry and starts sceaming and crying,which is why i worry that it is they way she has brought him up,i am determined not to have georgia turn out like that but keep getting told if i let her sleep with us etc she will. so if anyone else has stories about how they use these techniques and still have a happy polite child i would love to know lots of differnt ways people went about it.

Right now though ive been having a few problems with georgia lately at night i have been cutting her night feed and it was working great when she woke up i would give her a dummy cuddle her into me and rock her back to sleep in which she would end up sleeping 7pm night till 6am now she has decided she wants to wake at 3am,not to drink but to play and when she does this nothing will get her to sleep and the more i try the more upset and worked up she gets,how do i get her back to sleep i try keeping lights of,no tv and no talking or eye contact but she just laughs and talks for ages,i do so much with her during the day you would think she would be knacked.

By Michelle on Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 09:44 am:

This is a quote I was just reading from 'liberated parents, liberated children' by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish: "For what does it profit us if we have a neat, polite, charming youngster who could watch people suffer and not be moved to take action?"

I think it's important not to undermine our children's feelings for the sake of 'politeness' here. It's these gut insticts that are there to protect us, and we have to teach our children to trust in that, and to trust themselves and how they feel.

For instance, what if Georgia is a young teen, out with friends and is approached by a strange man. Would you want her to make friendly chit-chat for the sake of 'politeness', even though her gut feeling was that she was in danger, and that she should be running away?

Just to add some real life experience here, I had a friend in high school that never said 'no' to boys because she didn't want to 'hurt their feelings' At one time she had about 5 boyfriends. Anyway, one day she was walking home from the shops by herself and ended up being raped. (I know this is extreme, but it is unfortunately a part of life). At first she had said 'yes' when he asked if he could kiss her- but when she started saying no he didn't take any notice, and already had her pinned to the ground. She had always been a 'people pleaser' and was very social, polite person. I'm not saying that it was her own fault, but perhaps if she had been taught to listen to her gut feelings, she would have walked straight past this guy and at least had a running start.

My nephew who is 3 years old was never a 'cuddly' baby and used to crawl away from me when I asked for a cuddle. His parents have taught him to say hello and give a cuddle when he sees us. But it is the most half-hearted, cold and quick hug you've ever received! I would much rather wait and have a warm cuddle given because he truly feels comfortable and affectionate towards me than to have one which is 'forced' upon him, do you know what I mean?

Perhaps if you spent more time with your friends child, he would warm up to you, and know you and feel comfortable about saying 'hello'?
As for the seperation anxiety, I think that is releived by allowing the child to form strong attachments to people outside the family andthe only way for that to happen is by people spending time caring for him. I think you also have to take the childs temprement into account. My TJ is very outgoing and charming, but my nephew is more of an intellect and quieter.
Beleive it or not, I was a shy and quiet child and probably 'impolite' to those I didn't know. My parents didn't really push me to be otherwise and I grew out of it (and now you can't shut me up! LOL). I'm still lacking some social grace when it comes to large groups of people I don't know. But that's who I am, I prefer a small group of friends who I know really well.
All you can really hope to do is to gently guide Georgia, because ultimately Georgia will be herself no matter what you do, so she might as well feel happy about who she is. That's my view anyhow.

By bobby smith on Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 06:47 pm:

Hey,
I know and see what you mean and maybe he does get funny feeling about some people but at the same tim my dad and his wife who are his god parents,he cuddles them and is all over them if they have something,for example they see him a few times a week and normally due to working rite next to a cool toy shop they take him and his sister toys or little things (like all god parents i suppose) but the other day they happened to go past and called in without anything,he rushed to the door and onced opened and he realised they had nothing didnt say hello or speak when he was spoken to,he does this to all good friends and family,which makes everyone angry and even more so when it is brought up to his mother she just gets angry and says well if he dosnt like you anymore thats not my fault hes his own person he can decide,I will make sure georgia understands the difference between stangers and people we know and i wont be making her give cuddles or things she finds uncomfortable but i dont think ignoring good friends and family is very nice,so i just have to hope she is outgoing and follows my lead with politness.

On a different note you were saying about your little one having tantrums, my partners little neice is coming upto 3years old and is so bad im not sure whos the most upset, Dad who just happens to need something from the dairy rite at that time or the mother who wishes she could lock herself away,but she found something that works.
She has a special book which she keeps for these times and when the tantrum starts she sits in the room or wherever linny is and just starts reading,she talks really happy and excited to take her mind of it,all the while stoping to ask if she wants to join in,she found the more she asked what was wrong or try to make her sleep,the worst she got,after a few times the minute she got the book out linny would stop and listen,She would keep going till the book was finnished and then try to talk to her etc,Well it might work anything is worth a try hope it does help some,you need to whave a real happy book and a longish one depending how persistant your little one is(LOL).

Im really enjoying this site.
Thanks bobby,

By Michelle on Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 07:22 pm:

I don't think that you will have those same problems with Georgia, because I imagine that you will at least explain what you expect from her. Obviously this little boys behavior doesn't bother his mother or she would do something about it and not just get defensive about it. But I really don't think co-sleeping has anything to do with it.

That's a great idea about the book! Taliver just LOVES books, and it would certainly divert his attention and help him to re-gain control. He hasn't actually had a 'proper' tantrum yet (the kind where they get out of control and start to scare themselves) as he is only 13 months. I just want to be prepared I guess. He seems to have settled down a bit now and isn't throwing himself down and crying as much anymore. He has been headbutting me ALOT though. The thing is, I think he does it as a sign of affection but sometimes (especially fast and unexpected ones) they really hurt! Today when he was doing it (over and over), I just kept moving him away when I saw it coming.
Ah well, they sure keep us on our toes, huh?

By Pinky on Thursday, July 7, 2005 - 01:37 pm:

Michelle - your thoughts on 'compliance'(people pleasing) as opposed to 'cooperation" are so spot on - there is a line between genuine feelings and polite expression /"manners".
'liberated parents, liberated children' by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish is a great book.


I hate it when people make children say "sorry' when it really has no meaning (is obligatory like the cold hugs you mentioned). Very often adults are reading their own agenda into chldren's behaviour - generally, there is no malicious intent.

Re giving cuddles - I think we give children a lot of mixed messages about compliance - as adults we dont have to allow unwanted touching - and most kids when they can speak , will complain too - hopefully!

I guess there is a fine balance between encouraging 'politeness' and 'forcing' it- and the definition of what this is in the first place - we all have our own 'values'.

I wsa quite delighted yeterday when I gave my ( just 14 year old) choices -On FRiday I am meeting Larissa (my adult daughter) early and we are going to visit friends out of town/ you can either get up early and come too(its school hols)/ be dropped off at XXX, or stay home. He replied, "you work around me often enough. Im sure I can work around you this time."

There are many ways of supporting children who of course are all different in their reactions/ responses socially. It sounds like your friend needs some support, Bobbi. By being accepting and open towards her,rather than 'judgemental' she may be able to present her side without feeling/ acting defensive. Also, if you are simply present without any reaction/ effort at coaxing her child to talk/ play with you - almost ignore him (politely without comment), he will most likely decide to approach you when he is ready.

As Michelle says, there are a lot of factors involved - not just where babies/ children sleep. Sadly sleep has become enmeshed in so many debates around parenting styles/ discipline/ dependency etc - where the child sleeps is very personal - "if mama aint happy, then nobody aint happy" is a very good rule of thumb - some parents co-sleep for part of the night, some all night, some prefer to have baby near their bed rather than in with them - wherever it works for each family is what is right for that family.

It really isnt worth worrying too much ahead of time - it takes a long time to grow a person - some of us have been outgoing all our lives, others ( even in the same family) are more likely to check things out before barging in and connecting with people - one of my daughters is always laughing at me - sayimg "dont make eye contact" cos I am likely to "pick up' anyone who wants to chat from raffle sellers to drunks - not sure whether this was about being a 'polite child" or whether its part of "me" - My sister is much less outgoing/ more discerning, for instance. Sometimes this means she is judged as "up herself" - I personally admire people who have a bit more "hard arse" in them and can 'stand back and read the situation" before jumpimg in. On the other hand, I really love people and find diversity fascinating- ( not scary), so have taken a lifetime to be wary of 'users'.

Not sure where Im going - but it is interesting to watch kids unfold and I feel that our modelling is a HUGE influence - and that means treating kids with empathy and consideration for their feelings.

Pinky

By Kimberley on Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 08:48 pm:

Wow, Hi guys
sorry I've been out of action for a while, computer troubles. Congrats Michelle on Taliver's first steps, how exciting.
Hi Bobbi, I guess I agree with the advice re letting your friend's child gradually warm up and trying to support his mum if possible. I can understand that he may come across as rude, but it probably doesn't help him if he sees adults as not liking his behaviour and he probably can't discern that it's not him that people aren't liking, ie he may think people don't like him, not his behaviour, so this can lead to low self esteem and then more bad behaviour and so on. Hope that makes sense???
Re the head butting Michelle, Elsbeth does this too as her 'kisses'. She's a bit slower than TJ by the sounds and it doesn't hurt but when she's tired she can be a bit full on. something I've noticed recently is that now that she can move around better, when going to sleep, she climbs across me and snuggles into my chest/neck. It gelled with me that she would probably have done this when she was younger if she had the motor skills to.
Re tantrums, Elsbeth has been having little ones lately, usually when not getting what she wants such as walking (where I hold her hands and we do laps of the hallway). In my mind I was trying to resist walking her as I didn't want her to think she could have her own way, but I guess I was subconsciously not wanting to do it as it's a bit tiresome. Anyway, I realised it's just another play activity she really loves and is boosting her confidence and gives her other experiences. By 'giving in' to her wants in this regard, it hasn't seemed to make her naughty or demanding in other aspects. I do say no gently to other things, especially if dangerous, and divert her attention which seems to work well.
I tend to be a bit of a helper too Pinky and tend to attract people from all walks of life. When I was pregnant, I had 2 occasions where people asked me to drive them somewhere. I guess I looked trustworthy, but they didn't seem to worry that I was wary of them. I said no to one lady, but the other was an old man in his 80's from a hostel whose taxi had dropped him off in the wrong street and he was lost. He had an ID bracelet on his wrist with his correct address. So I bundled him into the back of the car and squeezed his walking frame into the boot and off we went to his hostel. All along I was thinking 'you are such a sucker Kimberley'. As it turned out, he was Polish and had been a fighter pilot in the first world war and told me about his wife who had passed away several years earlier and that they had been separated in the war for many years and told me about the origin of my name. There was nothing I could do to stop him talking. It was a very touching experience.
I guess to link this to manners and respect, like quoted above, isn't better to be able to see the beauty in people and help others rather then have perfectly polished manners? cheers Kimberley

By Jo on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 06:11 pm:

Hi There,

It's been ages since I've been to this site, although thinking of it often. How do you girls get the time to read and reply so often!!!!!!!!

PINKY and Girls did you see the article in The Sunday Age LIFE magazine on 'Extreme Mothering' it was about attachment parenting. Apprently there were a heap of replys to the article. I wrote one as I thought it was good that the article promoted the 'Do what works for you' approach but it also got some flack from others who disagree with the co sleeping and pro breastfeeding etc.

My little boy, Seamus, is now 5 months old and he is very happy. I still find myself questioning my methods or lack of and often think (especially at 3am) that I don't want another baby(Although in the day time I do!) I hope to keep more in touch with this site and the positive approach to parenting that you all offer, just tell me where to get more time in the day/Night to read.

Just a comment on routines etc. Seamus gets wrapped before bed and uses a dummy. Sometimes he goes to sleep on the breast other times he has the dummy while I rock/pat him and other times he gets put in the cot happy and talks himself to sleep, if he gets cranky a rewrap and dummy placement usually does the trick so to all out there who think they're going to cause problems by feeding/rocking/patting their little ones to sleep have no fear I do all of them, including co sleeping when it suits. I'm a mother of 3 so I can't rock/pat him everytime and he lets me know if he doesn't want the breast so we work as a team, no forcefulness involved. Do what works for you and your bub.

Well take care to all and hope to be back very soon to catch up on some reading.

Jo.

P.S How do you check the lastest postings? I've been going into Last Day or Last Week?

By Pinky on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 08:08 pm:

Hi Jo,
Sounds like you and Seamus are going really well. I love the way you have worked it out in a way that suits you both and how much you sound as though you are enjoying Seamus - we don't have to be 'all or nothing' in our approaches.

Re posts - I check latest posts by going into "last week" _ im technically challenged at the best of times and have little time so slip in every few nights.

I was in NZ the weekend of the Extreme Parenting article but had it sent to me so sent in a response -then missed the paper that had the responses Did I have one there?
I thought the parents in the article sounded lovely but the reporter seemed to think it was all very weird, and the critics interviewed sounded ignorant - my boys might still love to snuggle up to a lovely pair of breasts to go to sleep - but they arent mine! Funny how they think kids will always associate breasts and sleep -I dont reckon many men do that - however they were settled!

Must get and do some study - I am sitting my Lactation consultants exam in 2 weeks and my head is starting to burst with info. But the lovely thing is all the evidence is very affirming that following the baby is the way to go..

Pinky

By Amanda on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 08:18 pm:

Hi All, Likewise sorry I haven’t checked in for so long! In case you haven’t read it already I found Dr Sears’ Discipline book really helpful. Loads of great tips and useful information. What I found particularly interesting is that it demonstrated to me that how I was parented/disciplined will have a significant impact on my approach with Jesse. You know how I choose to respond/react to various situations. I hadn’t considered this until I read this book. I found the book to very balanced and sensitive to the child. Definitely worth a read!
I have found that I have a direct impact on Jesse and his ability to cope with various situations. If Im attentive then I respond more accurately to his needs resulting in minimal problems throughout the day. I have found that problems arise when Im distracted and am unable to give him what he needs.
Michelle have you tried baby signing? It may help Taliver express himself more clearly. Just a thought.
You know listening to you all its so obvious how much you/we love our kids. Second guessing ourselves so often is all part of the job! Take care Amanda

By Michelle on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 08:33 pm:

Ops, I thought I had responded here already!

Kimberley, Taliver can go from one extreme to the other with his headbutting, sometimes its just tucking his head into my head or neck, or resting cheek to cheek with me, but if he is tired or frustrated, that is when he tends to headbutt harder. It hurts so bad when he gets the bridge of my nose! LOL Another cute thing he does is snuggling with my hair while he's in the back back he loves to pat it. The other day I was cuddling him to sleep and he was playing with my hair and cracked himself up when he found my ear in there....it was so cute, but I was trying not to laugh cos I was trying to get him to sleep hehehe.

My mum picks up random people as well, but there is almost always an interesting story to hear. I'm much more reserved.

Jo, My wonderful hubby gives me about 45 mins to myself every evening while he bathes, changes and reads to Taliver before bed. So, I usually grab the chance to jump on and check things out.
I missed the article unfortunately, would have been interested to read it. I'm with you on the 'not wanting another baby' but for me its a good thing because I'm planning to wait- but knowing me my hormones will take over my logic. Perhaps that is another reason babys are programmed to be wakeful- as birth control? *LOL*

I'm similar with Taliver, in that I try to encourage him to fall asleep on his own but can usually tell if he's going to, or whether he will need a little extra 'help' the good thing is that he is needing less and less help as time goes by and I'm sure one day he won't need any help and I will miss rocking/breastfeeding him to sleep like crazy! It sounds like you are doing a wonderful job with Seamus. Congratulations!

Pinky, Good luck with your exam! I sure wish I had've had a lactation consultant like you instead of the mean one I had (sent me of to a sleep training centre when Taliver was 10 weeks old!!!!! and gave me a lecture when I said "they're not going to make me do controlled crying, are they?" GGgggrrr!)

Hope everyone is well
Michelle

By Michelle on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 08:38 pm:

Amanda, I did start doing some baby signing for a little while, but ended up giving up because I just kept forgetting to sign. I think I should try again though, because the other day he did do the sign for food when he was hungary even though I haven't signed to him for a couple of months! His language skills have improved so much the last couple of months, he says about 5 words know (discernable by us, but anyone else would think its just 'baby talk' hehehe) so he would probably pick signing up quick now. Thanks for the idea!

By Amanda on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 08:04 pm:

Thats great Michelle! We're not consistant with signing my any stretch of the imagination. But hey its a tool in our tool kit like any other. Take care Amanda

By Amanda on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 08:49 pm:

Oh Michelle just had to say too that you’ve given me allot of relief, belief and hope that eventually Jesse wont need help to fall asleep. He demonstrated this recently actually twice. Once when his Poppy was visiting. Poppy had rung the door bell and prevented Jesse from just dropping off to sleep. Well Poppy held Jesse in his arms and was playing this soft toy that plays lullabies and Jesse went to sleep in his arms - JUST LIKE THAT! Then we were at Poppy and Nanas and his Dadda was holding him due for a sleep, and Dadda was doing the horse ride you know tapping with the knee gently and he dropped off again. HOW SWEET. Truly a moment to treasure for both these men...who rarely are involved in these tender moments. Anyway just thought I would share that. Thanks Amanda

By Michelle on Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 06:54 pm:

Aw, that's lovely!! I bet those moments will be cherished forever!
and I PROMISE you that Jesse will be able to fall asleep on his own one day :P I won't say WHICH day though hehehehe

By Amanda on Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 07:26 pm:

I know very special... Thanks but I expect not unlike the Poppy and Dadda moments Ill miss them when theyre gone! Thanks and take care Amanda

By Jo on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 09:04 pm:

HI There,

What is this signing??

Sorry Pinky your response was not printed. It would be nice if they printed an extra page next week with some other responses.
Thanks for the advice on the Dr Sears book Amanda, will check the library.
It's nice to hear that Dad's and Poppy's are getting more and more involved in bringing up the kids and interacting with them more. My husband is very hands on with our kids which gives me plenty of free time between feeding Seamus but time is just so precious and with a long list of things to do such as SLEEP, read a book, have a bath, SLEEP, stitch, applique, SLEEP, I find I'm pressured when I'm on the internet but I know we all have the same amount of time in the day so I'll just rearrange my priorities so that I have more time to read the wonderful advice on this site.

Did/Does any of your little ones prefer being swaddled to go to sleep? I find this frustrating as Seamus sleeps 'sounder' when his wrapped but unwrapped would be alot more comfortable in a co sleeping situation. I would like to hear about your experiences on co sleeping with your babies if you did it?

Jo

By Amanda on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 09:57 pm:

Hi Jo, Baby signing is a form of natural gestures you use to communicate which they learn before they can verbalise which helps alleviate frustrations which in turn helps defuse tantrums. Check out http://www.tinytalk.com.au/
No problem I just love Dr Sears' books.
It’s great they have some moments of their own. Steve tries to be involved as much as he can. Although he’s often home late but he tries to get up early and spend time with him. Although lately Jesse has been sleeping in so Dadda has been missing out.
Yeah I know what you mean as I type this my bed is a calling me...=o)
Mmmm I started to not wrap Jesse when he was oh I don’t know three four months old, cause he would work his way out of them anyway. So he’s been unwrapped now for quite some time. But earlier on he was sleeping in both his cot and with us. So to answer your question he did sleep wrapped with us no problem at all. There is a wrap style where you can leave their legs free'er which may be more comfortable for him to kick but keep his arms secure. I guess it’s something you have to work out together. I think as you start to try leaving him sleep with you unwrapped it will take time for Seamus to learn that hes safe which means loss of sleep for both of you. From what I hear babies eventually don’t like to be wrapped so unless its a problem perhaps just ride it out... Sorry Im not more help on this subject. Take care Amanda

By Rachael on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 02:32 pm:

Hi guys,
I am new to this forum and a new mum... my son Braedyn is now 7 months old... he use to sleep in a cot and unwrapped as he did not like it... we have just returned from holidays visiting family where we had to co-sleep... now being home again, Braedyn has decided he does not want to be in his cot... as soon as i put him in there he cries and as i do not believe in the control crying... i pick him up and as soon as i put him in our bed, he goes straight to sleep... as he is also starting separation anxiety i am not sure what to do... Any help or suggested readings will be appreciated...

Thanks Rachael

By Amanda on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 07:05 pm:

Hi Racheal and Welcome! You could try a book by Elizabeth Pantley called the No Cry Sleep Solution. You can get it through http://www.capersbookstore.com.au/scripts/shop_item.asp?by=ttl&item=1201 She offers gentle ways of changing sleep habits. Just so I understand you correctly you prefer not to cosleep? This book covers something like this I think but you could try placing the cot next to the family bed in a side car arrangement. Side car means with one side of the cot removed or lowered (you could find info on the web on this kind of sleeping arrangement). The idea is its an extension of the family bed and so as he becomes more comfortable sleeping on the cot, you gradually start moving the cot away from the family bed (replace the side obviously). Or perhaps this kind of sleeping arrangement will suit the family. It’s difficult now that he has experienced the warmth and security of cuddling up to Mum and Dad but the point I guess is there are alternatives that are gentle so don’t despair. As it will take time to determine your approach try not to get anxious about it in the meantime. I would just enjoy it for as long as it lasts. Hope you find this helpful. Take care Amanda

By Amanda on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 07:10 pm:

Hey Michelle, did you know Elizabeth has a No Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers and Preschoolers? Just thought you may like to know out of a matter of interest. Go to http://www.capersbookstore.com.au/scripts/shop_item.asp?by=aut&item=1946 to read more. She also has other books too. Elizabeth has been busy. Take care Amanda

By Rachael on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 09:36 pm:

Amanda,
Thanks I have had a look at it and looks good.. co-sleeping does not bother me or my husband, however people have told me that he is too old for co-sleeping and if i do not get him back to sleeping by himself that he will not be able to sleep by himself... being a first time mum this was quite scary as i do not want this to happen...

By Amanda on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 10:52 pm:

Hi Racheal, Happy to help. Hmm I hear that too! Have you read Pinky’s book Parenting by Heart? Now here is someone who has had children who co-slept and will tell you otherwise. Some other good books are any by Dr Sears...another family who co-slept. You can visit his website at www.askdrsears.com. I don’t think any of the non western cultures who co-sleep suffer from their children in adulthood still sleeping with their folks because they haven’t learnt to sleep by themselves (just a bit of humour there) =). Perhaps this advice is from someone who isn’t experienced with or understands the co-sleeping concept. It’s my understanding that it really depends on the child on when they chose to sleep on their own but parents have also been known to assist this gently in time. I if I recall the details correctly under co-sleeping of Pinky’s forum another Mum’s daughter chose to sleep in her own bed at around two years old because they were expecting another baby. I think its all about sensitivity. If you gently guiding your child (which it sounds like you are) then I don’t think you can go wrong. As Braedyn was sleeping well on his own you probably feel you’ve gone backwards with the co-sleeping. I know I did but now I see it as it was meant to be, and something to treasure. But if you still feel differently definitely check out those references as I’m sure you’ll find some answers. Keep in touch and take care Amanda

By Michelle on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 10:27 am:

I think its actually a lot easier to change a babies sleeping/nursing habits when they are older, because they can understand when you talk to them and explain to them.
If you and your husband enjoy it, and sleep well, my suggestion would be to co-sleep. Just tell all the nosey busy bodies that he sleeps in his own room. The first year of babies life, you have enough to deal with without worring about "setting up life long habits". Whatever gets you the most sleep!
That being said, I don't co-sleep. My husband can't sleep with out bub in the bed, so on nights when I do bring him into bed, hubby goes out to the loungeroom. I could co-sleep but it would mean not sleeping with my hubby and to be honest, I prefer sleeping with my hubby than my bubby. He kicks less, screams less, headbutts less, takes up less room and wants my boobs a little less (LOL). It means getting up during the night, but I find Tj wakes up less in his own bed and actually seems to prefer sleeping alone (on a normal night, on a teething night it makes no difference). Ultimately it is your decision, just know that you DO NOT have to let him CIO despite what everyone tells you. He's your baby and it is your choice, and there are lots of ideas out there to help you whatever you choose.
Good luck with getting him settled back home and welcome here hope we can be of some help!
Michelle

By Amanda on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 03:44 pm:

Michelle, I love how you put that. I completely agree re. setting up life long habits and when they’re older they will understand so its easier to change things. I have been saying that allot to Steve about various things "when he’s older and can understand we will change that". It sounds like TJ is like his Dad and prefers as you say to sleep alone without any interruptions. As you say what ever gets you the most sleep...hear hear! Amanda

By Pinky on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 11:18 pm:

Hi Girls- just trying to be quick (fat chance!) - flu / exam in a week and need sleep but I love your collective wisdom.

Re bad habits - isnt there an awful lot of pressure? I tell people, I very much doubt that my big grown sons still associate a nice pair of breasts with sleep - of course they may well like to snuggle up with boobys to fall asleep, but, these days - they aren't mine!

I think babies really are biologically programmed to sleep near parents -I like James McKenna's definition of co-sleeping - within sensory reach of parents - see his website under cosleeping links on this site ( sorry I need to uodate these but website has been down the list recently). James is director of the motherbaby behavioural sleep laboratory at the uni of Notre Dame, Indiana.

YOu are so right Michelle -age, maturity and readiness of the child makes so many things easier. Again, why I dont overly like No Cry Sleep solution is not the actual advice, but the implication that if you dont do SOMETHING, you will still have a baby in your bed/ waking at night for months (as tho it is a negative thing). I absolutely hate Pantley's term 'accidental parenting' -it implies that parents are setting up 'bad habits' - mostly parents are responding appropriately to the baby's expression of needs which are absolutely legitimate and age approriate - a seven month old, as Rachel has beautifully observed in her baby ( you do know your baby best!), is likely to be having a strong experience of separation anxiety, so co-sleeping (sleeping with or near) - in a safe sleeping environment- will help little ones this age feel safe and secure. It may reduce daytime clinginess too.

I agree you all - tell busybodies whatever makes them happy - dont waste your precious energy trying to defend your choices unless you are feeling strong and assertive. My rule of thumb is that even tho all advice is good advice (so long as you choose which bits to follow), "if they wouldnt deliver a casserole or do an overnight shift with your baby, you are not obligated to listen at all."

By Kimberley on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 05:39 am:

Hi Amanda
thanks for the advice. I bought a coconut but haven't worked out how to open it yet!!
Re the busybody thing, I was talking to an elderly neighbour the other day (our Mrs Mangle)who was telling me she didn't bf her children because her milk wasn't strong enough 'and it was much easier on the bottle anyway and I didn't want to bother with that'. I told her I was still bfing (bub is now 10.5 months old) and she said well you don't want to do that past 12 months do you!! There are some people that will tell you what to do regardless of what you're doing (even if they didn't do what you're doing), so you're right, it's best not to tell them.
cheers Kimberley

By Amys on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 07:42 pm:

Yep, I have people saying 'you wion't BF past 12 months will you?' to me too. Pfffft to them!!

I don't overly like the NCSS either Pinky, but I did give a copy to a friend of mine who had CC her 8 month old and they were both utterly traumatised by it. Was awful. I figured if the mother feels she HAS to do something to 'improve' her child's sleep then the NCSS is better than all the mainstream advice she's getting.

By pinky on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 08:07 pm:

Yep-Amy -I do agree with you - it is certainly better to hand NCSS around.

I am going on Today Show - 8.10am Thursday.

Pinky

By Amys on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 08:15 pm:

Will see if I can catch that. What channel?

By rebeccab on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 08:33 pm:

ooh, how exciting, pinky. what's the topic?
becc

By Pinky on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 08:25 pm:

Attachment parenting
Pinky

By Michelle on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 08:31 pm:

No fair, I'll be at work!

By Kimberley on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 03:57 am:

Hi Amy
you go girl!! In our mother's group, we're nearly the only ones left bfing and the mums who used bottles are asking when I'll wean. I find bfing so enjoyable for both of us and convenient, plus the most important factor of all is the goodies bub gets. Something I was wondering about is ovulating again in order to conceive (when the time's right!!) and also the effect on me if pregnant and feeding. I read recently in a 'natural fertility' book, which seems to be credible, that bfing is of more strain on the mother than actually being pregnant. Does anyone know if this is true??? cheers Kimberley
PS I saw you on Today Pinky by luck as I didn't know you were going on there. Well done!!!! You put parenting into perspective as being about loving your child. Here here!!

By Amanda on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 08:21 am:

Hi All! Listening to you talk about extended bf here raises the issue with me which I have only thought about occasionally. I have an open mind as to Jesse and extended breast feeding. I do find it convenient also and the benefits are endless. Although I can’t say I enjoy it - only sometimes. Which is sad I realise. But we soldier on!
I have no idea about bf and pregnancy but it does make sense. The body is under enormous strain. But in saying that I would think that nature would inhibit falling pregnant if it wasn’t achievable. If it were the case I would just consider getting plenty of R & R and eat well to aid your bodys ability to cope! Sorry I cant be more help but if you like Ill look around and see what I can find! Take care Amanda

By Amanda on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 09:05 am:

Kimberley, Whilst on the ABA website I found in their forum http://www.lrc.asn.au/forum/ a discussion on Breastfeeding through pregnancy and beyond - issues related to breastfeeding through pregnancy and beyond - tandem feeding.
Moderator Tina. It looks good - secton on ABA recommendations during this time, and others. Hope it answers your questions. Cheers Amanda

By Bev on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 09:29 am:

Hi all,
Just thought I would add something on this discussion. I am still bf Sophie at 20mo and really enjoy it most of the time. I guess I never intended to bf for this long, but it just feels right to keep going and let Sophie decide when she has had enough. I am getting plenty of negative comments, including from a Naturopath who told me that there is no benefit to bf a 20mo and I was holding Sophie back by still bf her and causing her sleep problems!! I am glad I was feeling quite strong at the time and got angry (after initially being upset) with the Naturopaths lack of support/understanding/ respect. It is really dissappointing that a so called 'natural' health practitioner does not embrace or at least support natural parenting approaches.
Other people just avoid the topic of bf or are obviously uncomfortable when I bf Sophie around them (including my sister, which is really dissappointing for me). But I know it is the best thing for Sophie and I.
I became very run down with very frequent breastfeeding (day and night) but have kept up with the breastfeeding multivitamin and trying to eat well and am now finding more energy as Sophie slows up on the bf. There have been a few articles in the Natural Parenting Magazine on tandem feeding which may be of interest. I think the priority is good nutrition and getting rest (not easy I know). I have read in many places that the optimum age between children is about 3 years in terms of the mother being in 'good health' and the emotional/developmental needs of the baby and toddler.
Happy bf and good luck to you all.
Bev

By pinky on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 09:35 am:

Hi Girls,

The ABA is a great source of info - a good book available through them but published by La Leche league is Mothering Your Nursing Toddler by Norma Jane Bumgarner (?? spelling) . there si also a new one "Adventures in Tandem nursing" .

Also see www.laleche.org

I have breastfed while pregnant - didn't ovulate til after first period at from 15 months to 20 months with each child. This varies from woman to woman and obviously baby to baby - I tandem nursed my girls. I dont see why breastfeeding would be more 'demanding' than pregnancy - I would have thought grwoing a whole new little person would be the bigger job. To do both, means some extra resting, good nutrition, older child if already a toddler usually slows up as milk tends to dwindle a bit, some toddlers find this incentive to wean, while others (like my Larissa) keep on nursing - she was quite allergic, esp to dairy.

I found pregnancy and nursing fine apart from early sore nipples. Tandem nursing was quite hard during the early days as the toddler had had some allergic reactions while I was in hopsital so was feeling unwell and obviously had missed me so had some adjustment which meant fairly frequent nursing (for a toddler - but benefit - no engorgement!). I often 'forgot' to eat enough then would be feeling fragile - after food I was fine again. After the early days it was really just another good mothering tool and the older tot would hold baby's hand as they nursed - toddler went back to her old pattern of nursing just a couple of times a day and eventually didnt nurse every day til one day she had a sore ear and I suggested she may like some 'booby' - she tried to nurse but had 'forgotten' how and sat up with a grin saying "I think I've lost my sucking reflex" !! Obviously she was quite old enough to wean .

Some women actually need to wean to become pregnant - as you suggest Amy, your body will seemingly support what it can manage - if mums get pregnant while their bubs are quite young, often the milk supply will dwindle and not be enough - this is due to pregnancy hormones, but affects women differently. I would say its probably best to get over one pregnancy, let your body recover before another pregnancy whether you are lactating or not.

By Pinky on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 09:43 am:

Hi Bev - it is suprising isnt it that so called natural health practitioners dont know more about breastfeeding but I guess until they actually see more older breastfed children they dont have the opportunity to learn -and babies who are breastfed are generally so healthy that they dont get to see Drs / natiropaths etc very often. I had a similar experience with a GP who tried to tell me there was no goodness after 3 months!

In fact, the immune factors in breastmilk are there as long as you breastfeed - some increase as baby becomes mobile - and exposed to more bugs.

Breastfeeding is really so much more than 'just food' - it is a physical expression of love between mother and baby - and an integral part of a woman's love life. As a relationship there are two partners and the best time for weaning is when these partners are ready - not when others dictate/ pressure/ misunderstand.

One answer when confronted regarding "still breastfeeding!" is a smile and comment " I'm sorry you can't see the beauty of it".

Pinky

By Michelle on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 10:25 am:

Hmm, this is an interesting discussion. I got my period when Taliver was only about 4-5 months old which I was a bit dissapointed about LOL. Its funny, because I've never had 'regular' periods until they returned after having Taliver. I also found that while I was pregnant my own allergies cleared up. In a way I sort of feel like having a baby has 'balanced' me if that makes any sense.
I agree with Pinky...I guess I must have it good or something, because I don't find BFing to be a strain at all, so I can't imagine how it could be compared with a pregnancy.
I know that Taliver is still gaining the benefits of BFing, because he has NEVER been sick (except when he was still in the hospital after being born). He fights off colds better than David or I and even if I think he might be coming down with something, its usually beaten off before its taken hold. All this, and Taliver isn't even immunised (unless you count BFing hehehe). It makes me sad when I see mothers I know giving up breastfeeding as early as they possibly can. I just can't grasp it, especially when there is so much information about the benefits around.

Anyway, keep up the good work everyone. I think by us leading the way with confidence, hopefully more and more mothers will see the light. I think (well, hope) that by having my younger sisters and even my SIL see me breastfeeding Taliver, and how much we both enjoy it, and how healthy he is, that they will want to follow suit when they have their babies.

Michelle

By Kimberley on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 11:12 am:

Thanks guys,
love that Pinky about your two little ones holding hands while feeding. I guess I thought it was strange to say bfing was tougher on the mother than pregnancy. Thanks for the references. Will have a look. Like you Michelle, I found hormonally I was a lot better during pregnancy and still with bfing. I have a period but the pms is less. Kimberley

By Amanda on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 01:48 pm:

Bev it is interesting and disappointing that someone in that capacity would suggest such a thing. Although in saying that it was my Naturopath that didn’t inform me when resuming my natural progesterone treatment would inhibit my milk production! Man I have some issue with that... I commented recently to a friend who works in the same industry as me - we were both considering Naturopathy as a profession, that I after my experiences I don’t hold them in such high regard. I realise this is a general statement but its just so interesting when you learn about others experiences...
Pinky that is a lovely story about your littlies holding hands while tandem feeding. Conjuring up a nice mental picture! Thanks Amanda

By Kimberley on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 09:46 pm:

Hi Bev
that is really disappointing. I hope you got angry at them and gave them some education on bfing! Maybe the naturopath had a medical model background but it just seems that western society in general has moved away from natural parenting. Kimberley

By bobby smith on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 07:02 pm:

hi guys,just a question,my wee girl now 16weeks was sleeping so good at night and then all of a sudden she stopped.
I am a really bad morning person so now she is waking me at 1am and 5am then up for the day at 7am,the problem is and i hate myself for it is that i get so angry and just want to give her away!I know how horrible this sounds and when i am completely woken and my brain is working i feel so bad and mean but she really is starting to drive me nuts,am i the only person who feels this way,she goes of to bed in her cot,i rock her to sleep and then when she wakes the first time i bring her to bed with me and cuddle her to sleep but then she is up wanting a feed and stays up for ages,Any ideas of how to cope with the broken nights and my anger towards Georgia??
Im not crazy mind you i wouldnt actually hurt her or give her away but i just wish i still didnt think like that!

By Kimberley on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 12:21 am:

Hi Bobby,
you're doing a wonderful job and hang in there.
I'm not sure why you're baby has changed her sleeping habits, but it may be to do with maturation in her development as Pinky has mentioned before. I'm not a morning person either and I know how hard it is be rational sometimes, but re the night waking, I have come to accept it. We now co-sleep, which helps as we we both don't wake up fully for feeds, helping to settle back to sleep. At times, I definitely feel pushed to the limit by my daughter, nearly 11 months old, and the odd nasty thought can pop into my mind although I know I would never hurt her. I've read that this is normal and I guess we have been through such a momentous change in becoming a mother, which is a truly selfless job and under-rewarded (except for the love we get back from a child which makes it all worth it), so it's understandable to feel this way. Maybe Georgia's getting used to the change in bed after the feed, but this should settle down with time as she adjusts. Is it brighter in your room, which might keep her awake, or maybe she knows dad is there?
A way to help you cope with the broken nights might be to try to catch some sleep during the day when she's asleep if you can. Good luck, Kimberley

By Jane D on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 04:22 am:

Hi Bobby,
I'm with Kimberley (and by the way Kimberley - I've read many of your messages and I can't thank you enough for helping me indirectly..even when you are answering other people's queries)
Bobby, I too have moments of disliking my children (four of them) each day...but I still love them(as you love Georgia) I can go from crying with frustration to crying with love within two minutes!!! I can 'snap' and rant and rave at the kids, and then they'll look at me, come to me and cuddle me...and then the guilt really sets in! And my advice? Well I could write everything that counsellors have told me over the past seven years...or that you need to take time out for yourself...but I can be good at giving advice...but do I take heed of it myself? No..because there is no time in the day to take time out for myself!!
Anyway - all I can add is that yes, the feelings that you have are normal, and if anyone ever tells you that they have never felt like that - then I'm sure that they are lying!!! Believe in yourself. Believe in your instincts..write down at least one thing that you enjoy about Georgia each day.... and when Georgia really gets up your nose - pretend that she is somebody elses daughter - if only for a moment!
Three of my children wake throughout the night (and never at the same time) - and I have not learnt to accept it and I am still searching for the Holy Grail.....and I will continue to search probably until they are 18 years of age! Some days I am fine with it...other days I am not.
So..hang in there...use this site as a relief and a place to let off steam without being personally judged.
That's the beauty of this site - we are here to empathise with one another - children a common bond..and at this time of the night, we can feel like we are socialising - even though we're in our comfy pj's!!!
Stay in touch
Jane

By Amanda on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 11:00 am:

Hi All! I feel exactly the same... I can feel so mean and just hate myself. I look at his little face and deep into his eyes and think calm yourself he doesn’t understand. I think its normal as the other have pointed out as we have such a huge load and we need to perform to such high ideals everyday which is hard to keep up without slipping once and a while. As far as the sudden waking, it could be a few things. I would try to remember what day and night routines were like before the sudden wakings. There could be a clue. As Kimberley suggests they become more aware and this may contribute. Also it’s pretty common from what I understand for babies to wake at 5am and then start their napping cycles for the day until sundown again. Some thoughts I have to add are: food related: is there something new to your diet?; do you interact with her when she wakes: this can give her the signal its play time; did she have a fright: as is waking for extra cuddles?? Some advice I got from Michelle some time ago now is to be confident in your routine if your are happy with it and its been working until now and hopefully things will settle down. If you decide to change something take small steps because sometimes it not only takes a while to realise the result but also with too many its hard to determine which one is working. In the meantime as the girls suggest getting plenty of rest when Georgia goes down for her naps, even nap with her. Makes all the difference or at least I found it did. And give yourself a break, you are doing a great job and in time things will settle down again. Hope this helps, Amanda

By Michelle on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 07:34 pm:

Been there many times Bobby, and I'm sure I'll go back there again. All you can do when you feel like that is put her down and walk away. I usually go and do something (its very hard when he is totally screaming, but I know that he will just feed off my agitation even if I am there with him) make a cup of tea or whatever and very soon I calm down and my "I hate you" thoughts turn back into "my poor baby" thoughts. And if I don't do that, in those 5 minutes, the anger and frustration just compounds so badly that I end up sobbing as hard as he is and then my husband usually comes and rescues the poor child.

Sometimes its not even that I feel tired, its more like I'm just sick of the night waking. Anyhow, some good news from us, I've convinced hubby to try co-sleeping. Next week he is going away for work for 3 days, so I am planning on moving Talivers cot, rocking chair and night-light into our room and setting up a side car arrangement. I'll have to buy some darker curtains for our room as well. But hopefully soon, we will all be getting some more sleep. I just hope that once Taliver adjusts to it, he stops screaming so much. Last night I slept with him and DH slept on the lounge. Taliver woke up every 3 or so hours just absolutely screaming and refused to take the breast. I ended up just having to rub his back until he calmed himself down and went to sleep.
Good Sleep to all!
Michelle

By Amanda on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 07:35 pm:

Hi Jane...nice to hear form you. I really like what you said there. I can completely relate. Look forward to hearing from you again soon, Amanda

By Kimberley on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 10:15 pm:

Hi Guys
hope things are going well Bobby and everyone. I wanted to add that things seem to get better or easier over time. I know people say 'just wait til they're walking, then you'll know you're alive' but I think in general it gets better as they can amuse themselves for some length of time if you're nearby and can communicate more freely with gestures, body language and other sounds as well as crying (unfortunately).
Thanks for the feedback Jane. That's great Michelle re the co-sleeping. Hopefully it will make a difference for you guys. Sorry Taliver was so upset when he woke, maybe he's getting used to the new bed, I know Elsbeth had to adjust when we started co-sleeping.
Re our sleeping, we've taken the mattress off Elsbeth's cot and put it on the floor in our room (her cot is now converted to a small bed, so the plan is to move to the bed - but still in our room - gradually when she can get off safely). I settle her on the mattress for day sleeps and going to bed at night, then when we go to bed, I put her in with us. Beth doesn't like the mattress as much as our bed, but she is coping fairly well with it. She still feeds about 3 times during the night. Will keep you all posted. cheers Kimberley

By Michelle on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 09:47 am:

"but I think in general it gets better as they can amuse themselves for some length of time if you're nearby and can communicate more freely with gestures, body language and other sounds as well as crying (unfortunately). "

This is completely true Kimberley...but he doesn't need to cry as much nowdays as he used to, he is able to communicate in other ways. Like the other day, I was distracted and not paying him much attention. He was walking around, carrying a packet of nappies singing away. When I didn't notice it got louder, and louder until he was yelling at the top of his voice (but not in an upset way, just loud) I looked at him and said "oh, whats the matter with you?" David took one look at him and said "I bet he needs his nappy changed" Sure enough, I picked him up and he'd done a big stinker. How's THAT for communication? (Pity mums to dozy to pick up on it!). After that, the other day I told him to go and fetch a nappy so I could change him, and he went and found the box of wipes and started getting them out for me. I was stunned. He understands so much, I'm sure much more than I even realise.

By Pinky on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 11:09 am:

Hi all,
you really are a great group with fabulous suggestions. I think this 'frustration' of motherhod is very common - at every stage we have lessons in 'surrender' - which I dont mean as 'giving in' but being able to go with the flow and accept what is happening. There are so many changes as babies and kids develop -just as we seem to have it 'sorted' they will change.I often say, 'disappointment is the hardest emotion'

Bobby, I would like to recommend infant massage - You can find an intsructor near you through infant Massage Australia - www.infantmassage.org.au

If you can incorporate massage into your evening before bed, your baby a) may sleep better and b) it will help you get into a very calm space so you dont hit the pillow stressed, thinking - dont wake me tonight. It is also a really beautiful way to connect so you get attuned to your baby's cues very closely - when I teach massage, I do a lot of work around infant cues and find parents become much more able to get into the baby's pace and space so it isnt such a 'struggle'.

LOve Jane's suggestion re writing down one
thing you enjoy about Georgia each day.
Remember to keep these musings for when she is a teenager!

Another, is to do a bonding exercise/ affirmation -stop/ slwo right down , hold Georgia and match your breathing to hers, look into her eyes and tell her you love her - 7 times a day. Just try and fill her little tank with love, interaction and cuddles as much as you can during the day. Try bathing together, esp during the evening - perhaps after a massage. Then hopefully if her emotional tank and her tummy are quite full she may sleep a bit better.

Are you feeding her when she wakes or waiting? Are you keeeping lights dim? if she is going to be hungry anyway,it may be best to feed straight away before she gets wide awake - have you tried a 'rollover feed' late at night before you go to bed so 'hopefully' she takes her longer sleep to coincide with yours/ Again - more suggestions in "100 Ways to Calm the Crying"

Having said this, when you say you aren't a 'morning person' - I am not either and know how tempting it can be to stay up late when all is quiet - are you doing this? It is good to try and go to bed when baby does at least a couple of times a week so you match your sleep times better with hers and 'catch up'on some sleep so you dont get so frustrated when woken from your dreams (of that sleeping baby). ie if Georgia has already had along sleep, she will start waking in the early morning - look at nature -animals graze in the evening/ sleep then early in the morning when predators start to prowl, this is probably a biological time for babies to need closeness.

It is important to try and nurture ourselves where possible -I agree, not easy with little several little ones Jane - but to also accept that 'this is how it is right now' and how can I work around it? I cant change the baby/ situation/ the baby is the baby here - I am the only one who can change.

Sometimes personal space/ 'me' time may just be flicking through a magazine ( not reading a novel) - ie breaking things into smaller bits rather than trying to go full steam ahead then being disappointed.

A Melbourme psychologist Bety Chetcuti does some fabulous workshops - "Being a Mother" and she deals well with the anger stuff because she is a real mum who has been there/done that -she has 3 kids too and is a really lovely 'hands on' mum -see ''www.beingamother.com "

Meanwhile - feel free to let off steam,without judgement. It is a normal reaction to become angry when we feel threatened, but if you are feeling angry too often or it is affecting how you enjoy your children, do seek some help to work through your feelings and learn new coping skills.

Great communication Taliver - what a smarty!
Dont ever underestimate your baby's brilliance! Just because they cant actually 'speak' doesnt mean they dont understand - assume they are intelligent little people - right from the start - and they will be.

Pinky

By bobby smith on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 11:54 am:

Thanks guys,I am trying to slowly change georgias pattern,see she goes to bed at 6 or 7 and sleps till 1 then wakes doesnt feed then wakes at 5am sometimes for the day sometimes till 7AM i try to get her to sleep in the day but she only has a one hour nap all day! The other thing is georgia is on a bottle now as i had such a hard time BFeeding,(way to much advice little actual support)
Yesterday i brought a thing that goes on her cot it makes wave noises and rain noises or a heart beat,Tings that remind her of the womb,was great she went to sleep last night from 6am till 2am then awake at 6am and anothernap at 8am,then believe it or not she is asleep now at 1pm.
She seems to realy like it,I have decided that i am going to stay at home for a few days and get someone else to look after my grceries and stuff,just to get her more settled into daytime naps.
Great news Michelle on co sleeping my partner wasnt keen but he puts up with it we all sleep in the same bed just fine and he's learnt not to move across our invisable line! Hope it works!!
Really loving this site not getting judged all other friends just tell me to let her cry wen she wakes up and not to go in to her at all,They say "ull only have to do it for a couple of nights" i would never do that and despise people who do put their babies through such heartache,
Well must go now Georgia waking up soon i think,better get the dishes done!!

Take care all

By rebeccab on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 03:50 pm:

hi, all especially bobby. glad you seem to be a little more at peace. I have been thinking about you and also the suggestion about jane's suggestion about positive things. on the strength of that, in the shower (where i have a lot of 'brilliant' thoughts) I have decided to everyday think *what was the worst thing that happened today? *what was the best thing? * what 3 things am i grateful for?

Invariably, the worst thing doesn't seem so bad in comparison. makes me feel really calm and connected. Having said that, I don't know whether it's my fad of the minute, but it's working for now.
have a great day, remember that you are doing the very best you can do, and that's enough.
btw, bugger the dishes! have a cuppa.
xx becc

By Jo on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 09:39 pm:

Hi Girls,

I could make your hair curl at some of my 'nasty' thoughts in my 7 1/2 years of parenting but I've decided to put some money away for my oldest son Patrick's therapy. I figure he's learning while we're learning so it's the least we can do! LMAO!!!!

On a more serious note, there was not one mention in any parenting class about how much of a hard time us mother's give ourselves. WE'RE SO GOOD AT IT! Can't think of how many gold medals I'd have if it was an Olympic Sport. It's through fabulous site's like this one and through the information sharing that word spreads on how to treat ourselves better and to be easy on ourselves as parents.

I think the main point to look at is that we have all researched enough to find a place like this only to better ourselves. That in itself says how much we care about our kids.

I'm off now to take care of myself and my glass of red. Hee Hee!!

Jo

By Pinky on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 10:28 pm:

Dear Jo - this new olympic sport is called "the motherly art of self-flagellation". I think most parenting classes focus on all that we SHOULD be doing for the kids, not that WE need to be kind to ourselves so we can do some good to our kids.

Its a bit like the instructions on planes - put your own mask on first, then you can help the kids.

Good luck with the therapy account When my older kids crap on about me being too slack with the bonus baby ( you didnt let us do THAT! - it's like he has 6 parents some days), I tell them, "I was 'just practising' on you - I've got it figured now". Enjoy the 'red' -the anti oxidants are good for you - so you can chuck out the guilt!

Go Bobbi! Georgia really is doing vey well for a little bub and a few days home is probably good for you too. I give mums a 'homework ' - jarmie day. Had one mum go right off about this once - telling me she had promised herself that she would be up and dressed/ made up by 8 every am - not going to let herself go just because she had a baby - poor lady, we desrve a bit of slack and actually, a jarmie day can reduce stimulation to baby too.

Love the positives Becc - isnt it great how many really good things there are among the muddle.

Pinky

By Kimberley on Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 06:33 am:

Hi everyone,
have had computer troubles again which has been driving me mad!! I'm really sorry to hear about your diagnosis Pinky and that you've had the flu. I don't know much about it but hopefully having an explanation and treatment will help improve things. That's wonderful about your lactation consultant exam. It sounds very involved. I realised recently that early on after elsbeth was born, I had a candida (thrush) infection as beth had white blisters on her lips and I must have had symptoms but didn't take notice. I was too busy trying to adjust to the constant care involved and didn't worry about having myself treated. I had found bfing very painful every time she latched on and I just thought it was normal, but I've since read that candida can be in the breasts too and is quite painful. I wish I had sought a consultant's help as, as you know I didn't have a good rapport with the early childhood nurse, so didn't mention it as I would have felt I was doing something wrong. We have these funny ideas that it's all supposed to come naturally! That's interesting about the intake of milk as they grow and also that small breasts hold less milk. It's pretty obvious, but I didn't even consider it. Could explain the 2 hourly feeding, (I was told I was letting her snack!!) but thank goodness didn't listen. I remember at the time you had said on here or in your book? that the more they suck, the more you make, so I realised to just keep feeding and that the breasts are like the 'magic pudding' and just keep producing more. Although mainstream advice has you believing that you have to 'wait' for the bbos to fill up again. No wonder we first time mums have trouble and often sadly give up, eh?
Did you catch Mem Fox on Enough Rope last night. She is an inspired woman and recommended reading around 10 min per day, especially early on. That's pretty great that you know her! Thank you once again Pinky for your site, it is a true lifeline!! cheers kimberley

By bobby smith on Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 08:43 am:

Hey,
Georgia has been much better lately,funny too cos she has a cold at the moment and she has been coughing and all that feel so sorry for her,at times like this i wish i had better knowledge about breastfeeding at the start that might of stopped alot of the sickness.On another note i was so disturbed when reading the treasures mag the other day and there ws an article in their about CC, the lady says babies should be allowed to express their anger when ut down to sleep,the only anger Georgia had when i try ths method was anger at being left byherself,she also says that we shouldnt give dumies or let them fall asleep at the breast,i have learnt to ignore all the people who tell me im making a rod for my own back etc etc,But what worries me more is that so many first time mums of pregant first time mums will be reading this and thinking that it is ok to ignore your instincts and leave thier baby to sort themselves out.I found it really sad to read and thought id share with you all,i wish i could find a mag that wasnt so straight and that had alternative ways of raising our babies? Does any one know of any? If so i might ned the website they use as i live in New Zealand ill have to see if i can get them here. well i hope everyone is doing good georgie just woke up.
Take care!

By pinky on Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 01:03 pm:

Go Bobbi!
I was in Nz in June - I spoke at a college of midwives seminar in Hamilton and did days for parents in Hamilton and at Tauranga - were you there?
My books are available there from Pennys bookshop in Chartwell, Hamilton - they have a website.

Good mags are Mothering magazine - www.mothering.com ( US). Natural Parenting mag - www.naturalparenting.com.au (Australian) and Byrons Child -this is a bit 'heavier'. If you by any chance live near Tauranga , teh La leche league leader there, Trudi Hart imports Mothering magazine and sells them - she has a stack of back copies that you could buy cheaply.

Have you seen Parents Centres, NZ? They have a nice mag - and shouldnt have any controlled crying stuff . Do a google for Parents Centres New Zealand -they do have a website. Bummer about Little treasures - a great thing to do tho is to write to the editor and express your disappointment. It doesnt have to be "academic" - just sincere that you are concerned/ upset.

Glad Your computer is back and running Kimberly.Flu has left the building here and the sun is shining - am now into my next book. Frustrating that I'm a bit slower than usual but surrendering isnt all bad.

Re the milk - I meant to explain that we can always make enough - I love the magic pudding image - but babies needs dont increase an awful lot once we make it to the first 6 weeks - ie if you are producing 'enough' at 6 weeks - you wont need to make much more milk , give or take a bit extra when they have a growth spurt - a bit like my 'bonus baby' who is stuffing down tuna sandwiches and yoghurt and bananas after school right now- I bet his pants are shorter at the end of the week!.

Babies energy needs taper as growth slows a bit after the early months. Regarding quantities in comparison to bottle fed bubs -Breastfed babies dont expend as much energy as bottle fed bubs apparently and bottle fed bubs need greater quantities to cover the nutrient requirements in proportion to the water/ nutrient balance of formula. Although mummy milk has a high water content, it is loaded with nutrients.

Bummer, I missed Mem Fox - she is is a ball of energy and talent isnt she.

By Michelle on Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 07:57 pm:

"Breastfed babies dont expend as much energy as bottle fed bubs apparently and bottle fed bubs need greater quantities to cover the nutrient requirements in proportion to the water/ nutrient balance of formula"

This must be why I see so many bottle fed 'buddha's'!

Kimberley, my lactation consultant told me that I was letting him 'snack' when he was feeding 2 hourly at 10 weeks old. (But 3 hourly is completely normal?! what the hell difference does an hour make!). But she was horrible anyway. I'd armed myself with stuff from pinky's book before I left for that appointment. But she still made me cry, looking down her nose at me because Taliver was crying (she was running late and he really needed a nap). Telling me I didn't understand his cries and I needed help, and I must have post natal depression, because it upset me! Then she refered me to the family care cottage (Controlled criers'r'us) and then got her panties in a real twist when I remarked 'They're not going to make me do controlled crying or anything are they?'.

Bobby, I had the same experience in the book store when I made the mistake of picking up 'toddler taming' (should've guessed by the name really, I think it must've been morbid curiosity). In this book the author (a male doctor, typical!) states that when babies are 'fussed over' everytime they wake in the night, they will have a positive association, and therefore wake every time they come to the surface of sleep. What BULLCRAP! If that was the case, why does Taliver push me away from him, when I'm trying to settle him in the night? And why does he go straight to sleep when I put him down after a BF, but if I linger and cuddle him a few minutes, he wakes up and squirms and whines, as if saying "I'm done now mummy, I want to go to sleep."
I just feel sorry for the bubs of mums who can't see how illogical it all is.
Anyway, I've done ranting. hope it doesn't get me into trouble hehehe

By Kimberley on Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 10:31 pm:

Hi there
that sounds like a pretty bad experience Michelle. How ridiculous that she said you didn't understand Taliver's cries, I can vouch that you understand him extremely well and are very in tune with him. And to remark that you had post-natal depression, I think some professionals throw the term around willy-nilly because we're not allowed to express real emotions and are meant to appear that we know everything. I made one comment about something frustrating when I saw the early childhood nurse and she whipped out a depression questionnaire to see if I was depressed. If anything, SHE was bringing me down!!!
I still get the looks at mother's group when I pick up Elsbeth if she cries or wants me, but she's the only one who says 'mumma' if that's saying something!! She really enjoys including me and her dad in what she's doing and beams when we encourage her. I shouldn't judge, but I was annoyed when one mum called her daughter a wus for crying and said that if I picked her up when she cried, I'd be holding her all day. Well hello, if she picked her up, she wouldn't have a need to cry and therefore wouldn't cry as much because she knows she'll be picked up/rescued when needed (this should seem logical like you say Michelle). This mum also gloated about weaning her child in ONE day!!! just before she turned 1 and whinged about her leaking breasts. I just directed my attention to elsbeth as I couldn't listen to her talk about it. Plus she's 3 months pregnant, so I imagine her bub will have even less attention soon.
I had an issue with the same author of Toddler Taming when I bought Babies! the first year, a big boo boo.
take care guys, Kimberley

By Bev on Friday, August 5, 2005 - 08:28 pm:

Hi all, wonderful to read all the messages when I get a chance.
We have another challenge with Sophie (21mo) at the moment - she is really wound up and is biting, scratching, pinching and hitting. She is doing it to her Dad and myself and mainly at bed time when she is tired, but sometimes during the day too.
When I lay down with Sophie on the mattress to get her off to sleep (day and night) she will take at least an hour most of the time to calm down and go to sleep. While she will stay on the mattress she will squirm around, kicking, biting, scratching etc. (and sometimes kissing when I am lucky) me until she is calm enough to go to sleep.
I say stop and try to explain to her that she is hurting me. When she bites now I give her a wooden teether that we have and tell her to bit that if she needs to. I am wondering if she is getting her 2yo molars, but regardless it is just awful and I am starting to flinch when Sophie comes near me - even though much of the time she just wants to kiss and hug me.
Has anyone got any ideas? Does anyone know if food intolerances can cause this sort of thing?
Thanks
Bev

By Amanda on Saturday, August 6, 2005 - 07:33 pm:

Hi Bev, Not up to that stage yet so cant say with confidence... Jesse does behave similar at bedtimes particularly if he is wound up. It could be food intolerances. Perhaps you could cut her diet back to the basics for three days or so and see how she responds... Couldn’t hurt? The biting is troubling. Jesse is constantly biting me...my face, ears, neck, shoulders, tummy if its exposed, ankles too and got my right on the back the other day...Ouch! And the pinching...during feeding, while I’m holding him out and about, he rolls his little fingers with my skin between and it makes me cringe/sometimes cry. I am putting it down to his teething. Even at 10mths he now has 8 teeth...yes 8! 3 on top and 4 on the bottom. So it could well be that Sophie is experiencing new teeth also... Must be so uncomfortable for them... I think you are right to consider these first. Perhaps in the interim (until they erupt) crushed ice or ice blocks anything cool may help. Perhaps even a teething powder or something you are familiar with to ease the pain? Anyway sorry I am not much help and good luck with Sophie. Amanda

By Pinky on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 11:45 pm:

Hi Girls,
Lovely to hear you considerig why the kids are biting etc - not seeing it as 'violence'. It seems to be a sensory "need" - it feels GOOD!! to the biter/ pincher.

Often some fairly firm massage - with various objects ie a soft brush/ silk scarf/ feathers/ as well as your loving hands and lots of sensory play - ie playdough/ slime (made from soaking lux flakes in a baby bath with water overnight then let then squish in it - outside!)can help kids immature nervous systems get a good workout.

As you mention Amanda - ice blocks could be a good teething soother. It must be irritating to have teeth coming and biting seems to be comforting - the wooden teether sounds like a good alternative, Bev.

It is worth trying to see triggers - ie tiredness ??any relationship to food/needing attention -this is a legitimate need and best given in advance of scratchy behaviour, not as a "reward" - ie when you have been busy and havent noticed the tired/ needy signs. Try to see this behaviour as a communication - what is Sophie trying to tell you? How can you help her relax when she is tired - again, I would highly recommend massage as a lovely connecting tool and relaxation aid. Its really good as you are weaning to meet this need for closeness and touch. ??? is weaning going a bit too fast.

Re the pinching Amanda - could you massage Jesse's hand as he nurses (distraction/ sensory effect), or wear some beads on really strong thread so Jesse could play with these while you are nursing instead of pinching?? Like the African ladies - apparently they encourage older babies to play with their beads instead of pinching the other nipple.

Best thing is to try not to react - or this can have a 'rewarding' effect too. -A hard one isnt it?

Best of luck
Pinky

By Amanda on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 08:09 pm:

Hi Pinky,
Hope you are feeling better.
I hadn’t realised Jesse was getting these two new ones (just so unexpected) and I was starting to think he was becoming a biter. My parents are always reminding me "you were a biter" so I bought into it. At times I would loose patience and get cross and so I felt really bad when I saw it was new teeth. I hadn’t also considered it as a sensory need. That’s very interesting. I will try to remember that and perhaps introduce some of the games you suggest.
I would really love to massage Jesse but he absolutely refuses to lie on his back long enough sometimes for me to offer him booby. Any suggestions? Before he was so active I did get into a nice routine after a warm shower of massaging some oil in and he would relax his little body and I could see he was enjoying it. Now he’s eager to stand and crawl away.
I can see now that when we are busy talking and not paying Jesse attention he does get loud and try and get in my face which often results in us either stopping and including him or just stopping what we were talking about altogether to play with him. I hadn’t thought about whether I was rewarding him for his behaviour. It’s very tricky.
I will try massaging his hands when he nurses as you suggest. I have tried holding his hands but he just pulls them away and continues kneading my skin between his fingers =(. Its interesting you suggesting the beads because I saw a website in my travels recently called booby-beads - for that very reason. I suppose I could just get any beads couldn’t I and use those? Something strong as you say, colourful and perhaps even different sizes.
I find with the pinching it isn’t as bad if his nails are short so I make a point of cutting them so I don’t react as much.
The biting hmm I am trying... Sometimes he just lightly bites and then other times he really is bearing down with his teeth. I will try harder and just hope that this stage passes QUICKLY. I really appreciate your advice!
Amanda

By Pinky on Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 11:59 am:

Hi Amanda,
if hes biting the booby , its a good idea to gently remove him and say "no that hurts mummy".

Its the beginning of gentle discipline -usually if they are biting, they have already had a drink so wont go hungry - but hopefully will start to learn - biting gets me off the boob!

Re massage - isn't it tricky when they become mobile -the urge to move is very strong so will overide lying down -a bit of back massage as you cuddle , or hand and foot rubs - or whatever body part is facing you - is probably all you will manange at this stage. It is counterproductive to force any touching however 'beneficial'.


Pinky

By Amanda on Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 07:29 pm:

Hi Pinky, My husband is wise after all. He had already suggested that I take him off once he starts 'acting up'. As you say the beginning of gentle discipline. Although what do I do if he starts crying? I always think that hes doing that because hes not finished. Should I put him back on or wait a while?
Today I tried massaging his foot. He let me do one and then with the other he kept pulling it away. I would say would you like a foot rub and he kept doing it so I took that as a clear No! As you say cant force them even if I know it will help him. Ill keep trying. I know how good I feel after a massage.
Thanks again for your advice.
Amanda

By Bev on Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 09:04 pm:

Hi Pinky, Amanda & others
Thanks for the advice and information. I too have not had much luck with massaging Sophie. She just doesn't seem to enjoy it. I did learn baby massage when Sophie was only 4 months old, but even then she didn't lay still and wasn't particularly interested in it. I have tried just doing a foot or hand or back etc, but she just pulls away. So I have really given up on that one.
The challenges just continue don't they!!!
Cheers,
Bev

By Michelle on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 10:17 am:

Taliver is another 'won't stay still for massage' baby. But I find it useful when I'm settling him either in our bed, in the rocking chair or in the cot, to rub his back in big circles. Its not as good as a booby for stopping the crying, but I find if I just keep doing it he relaxes and settles that way.
Hope that helps
Michelle

By Kimberley on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 10:14 pm:

Hi guys
love your great advice as usual. Elsbeth is another one who won't sit still and now she bolts when I bring the nappy out. She's been screaming when I dress her lately and when getting in the car. I've tried distracting her by asking where her toes are and nibbling them or asking her where a certain toy is and then letting it suddenly appear - she giggles and forgets she's upset just long enough to get her clothes on or strapped into the car seat.
That sounds awful Bev re the scratching, biting, hitting etc. Is it possible she's not liking the mattress? I've found that Elsbeth won't go on the mattress at the moment, unless she's already asleep (but I don't normally move her as she gets a fright when she wakes somwhere different), so I tend to feed and rock her to sleep or let her sleep in the car when we're out. Could be her diet as the others suggested, but is it worth considering keeping Sophie up longer, or dropping a day sleep if possible to make sure she's more tired when she goes to bed. I'm no expert and in saying that, maybe she is ready for bed and gets overtired by the time she goes to sleep. I'm not being much help am I, but I just wonder if it's become a negative pattern at the moment and could you break it temporarily with a different sleep option like the rocking and try again later.
That sounds painful Amanda re the biting, it sounds comforting to Jesse unfortunately. For the sensory side of things, Elsbeth loves finding my belly and blowing raspberries on it. I wonder if this might give Jesse stimulation enough to help fend off the biting. We went through a similar stage about a month ago, which makes sense, and I found the best times to feed were when she was tired, just waking or when going to sleep and I had to keep distractions to a minimum. We were at my mil's house one night and she bit my nipple while I was sitting next to my mil. We were talking at the time and it was as if she was telling me to shut up, plus I was probably tense with trying to feed in front of mil. Hope this helps cheers guys Kimberley

By Amanda on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 01:08 pm:

That’s an idea Kimerbley re not tired yet. You know something like that happened to us. I hadn’t noticed but subtly Jesse was extending his wakeful periods and when he started to fuss I would look at the clock and think oh that must be it tired time for nap. But he wouldn’t go down. Finally I figured he’s not ready yet. So would then go through the other options boredom, hungry, and so on and until he would eventually go down. Very clever you are.
On the tummy side of things, unfortunately for me or fortunately for Jesse lol he bites me if he finds my tummy. He even goes looking for it if Im lying down. However since taking Pinkys advice I’ve tried to be more attentive these past few days and I would get out his teether from in the fridge and he would use that instead of me. I think Ive been a little tired lately and perhaps a little complacent and not relised I could be more proactive as hes obviously been trying to tell me something. Anyway we're getting there. Love this age though all in all, hes allot of fun! Love him so much it hurts... Thanks guys Amanda

By Jo on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 07:03 am:

Hi everyone,

I ALWAYS stay still if I get a massage but I'm not so lucky as hubby expects something in return if I ask for one and at the moment sleep is more important!! However I am lucky enough in that Patrick (7) and Brannan (5) love having their back and feet rubbed so we take it in turns on each other. And since there is two of them Im the one in the middle so I'm always getting either a back or foot rub!!

Sorry no advice on the biting, Brannan use to bit around the 7mth age but it was only when he was tired, too tired to feed so it was he's way of saying enough's enough!!

Jo

By Kimberley on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 10:34 pm:

Hi guys
I'm sure you're picking up on Jesse's cues really well Amanda, for some reason they're drawn to our tummies. How's the teething going? Elsbeth's getting 2 teeth at the moment, so she's been a bit out of sorts. I normally don't give her drugs and have found the icypole thing to work well, but yesterday I gave her baby nurofen (a little bit of pressure from mil, should've ignored it) and then she had really red cheeks. I'm not sure if it was a reaction or the teething causing it. She managed ok today without it so see how she goes.
That's lucky your boys like giving you a massage Jo, little sweeties, my hubby's similar or he falls asleep before he gets started!
cheers Kimberley

By Amanda on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 08:52 am:

Thanks for the vote of confidence Kimberley...Yeah it seems to have settled down. Gosh I have some black and blue bruises on my arms and shoulders where he has really got stuck into me. Luckily none on my face =(

By Pinky on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 05:44 pm:

Jo , You are a crack up!
kids are better at massage than hubbies ( some anyway!). It's a great way to stay in touch with growing kids isnt it?

Pinky

By Kimberley on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 12:28 pm:

Hi Amanda
that's pretty rough re the bruises, hope this stage passes soon! kimberley

By Amanda on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 08:45 am:

Thanks! Me too =)

By bobby smith on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 02:03 pm:

Hi all,just been away on holiday for 1 week and my loley georgia hated it,hated the shopping ,hated the car ride,hated everything.
Now that we are home perfect girl again so i now know she is not coming on my trip to Las Vegas in October,mum is going to have her for 7days.
Now thats not the only reason im on here,i want to find out why Georgia is in this horrible sleeping pattern at the moment and how do i get her out of it.She is Feeding good in the day with 2 feeds of solids(she is 5mths) and then goes down between 6-7pm she wakes for a feed at about 2-3 and then wakes for the day at 5.30am (not my cup of tea i tell you) LOL but nothing stops it she co-sleeps from 3-5.30 so i tryed putting her back to her bed after being rocked to sleep, But NO awake at 5.30 again, im going crazy i have so many things to do when she goes to bed i have a dog to train (i do obedience shows) house cleaning and washing,and sometimes i just like to do shopping or things for myself.
As i am not a morning person any way i am hoping there is a way to get her to even sleep till 7, or maybe cut the wake at 3. Any ideas ive had 5mths of wakefull nights and its seems like way too much to me,HELP LOL!!

By Nicole on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 07:55 pm:

Hi bobby,
Firstly, my sympathy goes out to you, it's so hard when they change sleeping patterns, isn't it, and you have to feel like a zombie!!
I'm not sure, but perhaps Georgia is still a little unsettled from your holiday? A friend of mine took her then 8 month old to England for 3 weeks and when they returned he was waking from 10pm to 2am for a week straight before his little system readjusted.
I hate to say it, but maybe she has changed her sleeping patterns permanently? My little girl (8 months old) has the same patterns you have just described. She is also up between 5 - 5.30am every day, and there's nothing I can do about it, except go to bed earlier and maybe get my hubby to care for her until 11pm (if she needs it and if he's not too exhausted from work himself) and to possibly give me a little bit of a sleep in after the 5am waking time until about 7am on a weekday. Could something like that work for you?
My bub also woke a lot when she started teething, maybe that is the case with little Georgia?
I'm out of suggestions so maybe some of the other wise ladies in the forum have some ideas for you....

By Amanda on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 08:10 pm:

Hi Girls, There is hope... Jesse used to be an early riser, like yours woke around 5am...but these days he sleep longer - until 6 or if im lucky 7. But I have to say only when Im with him which doesnt help if you want to sneak out. But perhaps this will happen with your bubbas too. I agree that even in adults it takes us a little time to return to 'normal' after a trip especially one OS where there are different time zones... Perhaps you could try spending some time outdoors in the early morning and late afternoon to help reset her body clock! I would stick to your routine and hang in there to see if in a week or twos time things start to return to 'normal' or improve. Perhaps to help ease the load is there someone who could come over and help you while you get some things done? I often call on my parents for help in this regard. They are a great support to me. Anyway hang in there and hope this helps, Amanda

By Kimberley on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 08:57 pm:

Hi Bobby
I wonder if it's to do with the time Georgia goes to bed as my daughter goes to sleep around 8pm and has 2-3 feeds during the night and then wakes around 7am. She has 2-3 days sleeps depending on her activity level. Maybe Georgia is getting plenty of sleep during the day or even at night, by going to bed fairly early, she's ready to wake up early. Sorry, that's all I can think of. Kimberley

By Pinky on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 10:47 am:

Hi Bobbi,

You sound really overwhelmed by all you have to do and I want you to feel safe expressing your frustrations, but perhaps somehow you have some unrealistic expectations about how babies actually sleep/ how much care they really need.

You are doing a fabulous job meeting Georgia's needs so this isnt criticism of what you are doing - just your expectations. It is hard to be a mum (nobody tells us that!!) and it is hard to manage on broken sleep BUT there really isnt anything wrong with Georgia's sleep patterns - she is doing beautifully for a tiny bub.

It seems you are happy for Georgia to go to bed early so you can get things done - but as she obviously doesnt need any MORE sleep, if you want her to sleep later in the morning, you could try putting her to bed a tiny bit later each day - say, about 10 to 15 minutes later, then after a couple of days, move this another ten to 15 minutes (so now shes going to bed twenty minutes to half an hour later). Over a fortnight you may get her to bed an hour later - and waking an hour later - gradually with love is the key to any changes.

Also, please find the support you need - ie somebody to do housework once a week if it bothers you, or a school kid ( 12 year old girls are fabulous) to come and play with Georgia -you need to supervise tho as a baby is abig responsibility but you can do housework while Georgia is up if there is somebody to amuse her. Have you tried working with her in a baby sling/ back pack? Babies dont need undivided attention - often I find mums trying too hard to be everything to their babies and this is exhausting - babies can sit in a bouncer and watch us work and we can talk or sing as we do this -its great stimulation for them.

There is an enormous amount of pressure on women to 'do it all' - ie have a sparkling house, a career and slot a baby in between all the 'real' stuff. The truth is your baby is the REAL stuff - this is a relationship and a very precious one. We are so conditioned by media and books to express OUR experience but there is little to encourage us to consider the baby's experience. these early months and years are the foundations of a whole new little being - her personality, her sense of security, her identity (I know you know this already!just a reminder).
Sure, this is an awesome responsibility - but the house will be there long after our babies grow and in the span of a lifetime, baby days really are a very short time (sorry, I know thats easy for me to say now i dont have a baby at my house al day and night).

When we have kids - it's like puppies - its not just for Christmas -it's forever. Im sure your own mum has been there for you right up til now. If shes happy to care for Georgia for a week, shes obviously still there for you - day and night.

The only sensible solution is to get to bed early a couple of nights a week and catch up on your own sleep. Do you have a partner who can help?

Take a look at all the things you are doing and try to prioritise - what REALLY has to be done - what will matter in a month? in a Year?

Please try and see things from Georgia's perspective too. And Re Las Vegas - sounds like heaps of fun but a baby of 6 or 7 months will be going through major separation anxiety so could be devastaed by such a separation - as may you!!!Is there any way your mum could accompany you to care for Georgia? Or could you postpone the trip til she is a bit older? Otherwise a tip is to leave some of your worn clothing ie teeshirt or dressing gown for Georgia to sleep with/ be wrapped in for cuddles, so she still has your comforting smell, and perhaps even a recording of you reading stories to her. Whatever you can think of to minimise separation anxiety. And lots of time with your mum before you go so its an easy transition.

Hugs - and get some rest,
Pinky

By bobby smith on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 01:03 pm:

Thanks pinky,well it desnt look like im going away anymore now anyway but on te other hand im sure Georgia likes my mother more than me LOL she is even more all over her co-sleeps want let her cry plays with her all day and carrys her around in a pouch!! My only concern might be i wont get her back!!

But good news on the sleeping its that she was sick she has a virus in her lungs so she needs a inhaler for a couple of days to help her breathe,shes doing ok though. So apparently it was coming on and this is why she was getting up early as the cold in the early morning was upsetting her condition more! Now i know this and keeping her snug she is sleeping better even though she is sick.

On another note i went out the other day with my friend and her new bub and i was telling her the great benefits of not doing the controlled crying! problem was she had another lady with her and man did she have a go at me, she went on saying she made her baby cry itself to sleep from 8weeks and she never breastfed as she couldnt be bothered with some thing hanging of her (actually what she said) When i responded that i did find that all a little mean and that i felt that it was a babys right to breastmilk but that she could parent how she wants and that i was just telling liz of the benefits of AP,she then accused me of being pathetic and spoiling my child,she says babies should be able to be taken anywhere not cry and want attention.

I tryd not to get angry and so i left without much to say, when i did leave i felt sorry for her child and the life it must live,well wecant change everyone but my friend is going to try my suggestions so hey at least someone took what i said seriously!

well enough of my going on just thought i would share a sad story with you, thanks for all the suggestions.
Take care,hope all is well with everyone!

By Pinky on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 08:23 pm:

Hi Bobbi,

Your mum sounds like a fun Grandma. I have already told my kids that when they have babies they will have to take out an intervention order against me!

I am glad you have Georgia's virus sorted. It's almost murphy's law that when we feel confused about baby behaviour there are other things going on for the babies and it can be very easy to forget that the baby's experience is important too.

How neat of you to support your friend - it sounds as tho it must have felt right to her to hear what you were saying. You were obviously meant to be there to counter the hostile person who was so detached from her baby. It must have felt very weird to defend what was natural and right for you against such a crabby woman. It takes a lot of guts to say what you want doesnt it.

Who knows, maybe you sowed a seed of doubt for her and how she thinks of her child. I feel sorry for the mum too-= shes missing something very lovely.

Pinky

By Amanda on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 08:47 am:

Wow Bobbi, good for you on expressing yourself to that horrible women. I know exactly what you mean about feeling sorry for their baby/ies/children... Its also wonderful to hear that you were able to get to the bottom of Georgias sleeping/waking. Its been a very empowering week or so for you. Take care Amanda

By Megan on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 06:44 pm:

Hello! I just wanted to chat about "motherguilt". Im a fairly young mum (24)and previous to having my daughter four months ago, my experience with babies was limited. Until Bella was about 6 wks old I was pretty depressed. During this time I felt incredibly guilty about alot of things.I felt bad that I didnt feel an immediate bond with her, I felt bad that I couldnt breastfeed, I felt bad that she wasnt sleeping as long as other babies, I felt guilty that I wasnt a supermum and that I wasnt enjoying being a mother as much as I thought I would- the list goes on. After talking with other mums I was amazed that so many other women experienced feelings similar to mine in the first couple of months. I just wish that my friends and I had have been honest with our feelings in the beginning so we could have offered support to one another. I took so much comfort in knowing that I wasnt alone and Ive come to realise that as long as Bella is happy, gaining weight and sleeping adequately then I am doing a fabulous job!. Has anyone experienced similar feelings? does motherguilt ever go away?!

By Amanda on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 09:00 pm:

Hi Megan and welcome! I love your daughters name Bella btw... Gosh absolutely did I experience the same feelings of guilt and inadequacies. It’s only normal and as you say if only we women were more open and supportive of one another motherhood might be a little less complicated...as least that’s how I feel about it anyway. It’s actually great that you’ve had this realisation after only six weeks or so...I expect many women can go a long time alone feeling "motherguilt". This is why I enjoy Pinkys website so much! I soon learned I was not alone… Motherguilt does go away...or again at least it did for me but I think as a mother we will always feel responsible for our children. I was just discussing this with another mum the other day who was feeling guilty about not changing her daughter’s nappy through the night at every feed. I was exactly the same and shared that I measured my 'good mothering' on simple tasks like this. But then I relaxed and realised that I was only proving this to myself. Everyone else was already convinced that I was a good mother. I’m sure this is the case with you too! It’s natural that we love our babies so much we want to the best to care and nurture them. I think it’s a sign of a caring and loving mum! Take care Amanda

By Michelle on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 11:07 am:

Hi Megan,
I just wanted to say that even if your baby wasn't gaining weight or sleeping adequately, you would still be a good mother. Just the fact that you are concerned about it makes you a good mum in my opinion.
I feel I had a pretty hard time when my son, Taliver was a newborn/infant as well. I felt like I should be enjoying it more, and felt bad that I didn't bond immediately as much as I had expected to.
He is now 15 months and is only just starting to sleep through the night. I used to blame myself for his unsettled sleep patterns, but they have finnally started to sort themselves out and because of that, I've realised that his sleep patterns had absolutely nothing to do with what I was doing with him. Even though at the time, I felt I must be a 'bad' mother because I couldn't bring myself to let him cry himself to sleep.
I now feel the feelings that I had wanted to feel when he was newborn. He is such a joy and I am so deeply in love with him. Not that he wasn't a joy when I was zombie-like in my sleep deprivation, but its just hard to smell the roses when all your body wants to do is sleep.
Your doing a great job, we all are!
Michelle

By Nicole on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 01:16 pm:

Hi Megan,
I've just recently joined this site and love it, you'll find it so refreshing!
I went through the same feelings you are describing, but unlike you am already a stepmum, have worked as a nanny, and am a qualified teacher! Nothing really prepares you for having your very own baby, and likewise nothing prepares you for that achingly beautiful twist of love in your heart you feel for them. I bet you never thought you could love anyone quite like that, hey?!
Occasionally I now get feelings of guilt, despite reassurances from my hubby that I am doing a great job, but it does get better as you start to ignore what's in most of the childcare books, and start to trust your instinct.
I absolutely hated my mother's group. It was full of women who were trying so hard to be supermum, and completely in denial that motherhood can be a hard road. I got some really weird looks when I mentioned once missing a good night's sleep - what the heck is that all about? Why do women feel they have to outdo each other instead of coming together like a real community and offering real support? Needless to say, I don't go to that group anymore, but have found more likeminded mums at ABA and on sites like this.
I can relate to what Michelle said about feeling like you should enjoy it more when they are newborns, when your body is screaming for sleep and needs time to heal after childbirth!
I think it's great you've realised that your child's happiness is a good measure of whether you're doing a good job or not- it's all that counts really.
I'm sure I speak for all the other ladies when I say I look forward to chatting to you in the future!

By Megan on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 11:20 am:

Thanks Nicole. It's funny because im a teacher also, (early childhood)and I thought that after having extensive experience with young children, motherhood would be easy. Bella was born by emergency ceasarian (I developed severe pre-eclampsia)and I felt like I had no control over the situation. As a teacher I like to be in charge!So I felt quite traumatised by her birth. The first night she was born I was in intensive care so I didnt even hold her until the next day and on top of that the bf thing wasnt happening so from day one nothing was how I thought it was going to be. I think in hindsite that my expectations were far too high and now I just take things one day at a time.It has definitely gotten easier as time goes by but Bella is the boss and just when you think we have established a loose routine, she decides to throw it out the window and have things her way! Ive realised now that I cant control every situation which has actually made me more relaxed and probably a better partner and mother!

By Nicole on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 07:01 pm:

Hi Megan,
I had an emergency c/section too!(big baby, overdue and only dilated 4cms after 10hours of being induced) I got to hold her in recovery (and thank heavens give her a breastfeed) while they were palpating my abdomen, and then she was taken away to the neonatal unit because she was such a big baby and the medical team were concerned about her sugar levels, so I didn't see her until 5 hours later! I hope that time has been able to heal the trauma you felt over Bella's birth, I know it has with me.
I know what you mean about not being in control, though, and I'm sure I speak for many of the other ladies when I say motherhood was also a bit of a rude shock to the system! It is good that you can be flexible with Bella, I think babies need that - they are only new to the world and haven't a clue about most things - all they know is they want what they want when they want it and that's it! Darling little things!!!Like you,I've been able to dig down and find patience and perserverance I didn't know I was capable of, and doesn't that just make you a better person in the end?

By Kimberley on Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 08:23 am:

Hi Girls
welcome Megan, I was touched by your story and felt really sad about you not being able to hold Bella. It's amazing how we really expect motherhood to be different. I guess I kind of knew that it was going to be really hard, but still the reality made it hit home. In the beginning I just kept going through each day, hour really, at times struggling even to catch a shower or run to the loo. It really is not a one person job in the early months, but we're not prepared for that or feel like we're not coping if we can't do it all by ourselves. I had a caesar too and sorry to hear what you went through too Nicole. As you say, time does heal, but boy it's no picnic eh.
I know next time around I'm definitely getting more support at home, even if I have to pay someone. For some ridiculous reason, Damien kept working, we had Elsbeth a few days early so he wasn't prepared and had booked a really busy week at work, but his boss (who has 3 kids) didn't say no mate I'll step in for you, stay at home. I have issues with his mum and it even seems like she encouraged him to keep working (she has 5 kids) and still she didn't offer any help!! It felt like she was waiting in the wings for me to crumble and then she could come in and save the day, so hence I didn't put my hand up for help either. It goes without saying that my mum should have stepped in to help too but she has this viewpoint that you brought the child into the world, you can raise her, and yeah that's completely true but selfish I feel as I really needed the help. She raised us 3 on her own, so maybe felt that well at least you've got a husband!! (who knows) I've raved on but hey that's the beauty of Pinky's site and the support from all the wonderful mums on here. I'm brainwashed too Michelle, I go around telling people about Pinky all the time!! Take care guys, Kimberley

By bobby smith on Monday, September 5, 2005 - 08:22 am:

Hi guys,I have a problem georgia has in the last week become terrified to go to sleep!When i take her to bed she normally takes 2min to get to sleep and now it takes an hour or more she stares with her eyes wide open and the when she closes her eyes she wakes up screaming,Is she having nightmares??? i dont know what to do last night she slept for 1hour all night waking and getting very upset,she doesnt seem to be in pain just scared i havent changed anything much,i got this book called the no cry sleep solution and have been doing relaxing time at night etc but nothing to weird that should be freaking her out.Any ideas on what this could be i feel so helpless!!

By Kimberley on Monday, September 5, 2005 - 11:41 am:

Hi Bobby
I'm not sure what it is, but is it possible she's not ready for bed yet as this can change as they grow? I wonder if she has wind pains that might be making her scream when she wakes. Hope it settles down soon. Kimberley

By Amanda on Monday, September 5, 2005 - 09:02 pm:

Mmm sounds very upsetting Bobby hugs to you... Jesse did this the other night which I put down to him trying my pesto pasta - pine nuts or the oil giving him griping pain...he wanted to sleep but couldnt kind of thing... Anyway it could be as Kimberley suggests not ready for sleep...it can sneak up on you...Jesse would scream the house down if I were to try to put him to sleep when he wasnt ready! Could you poo pains...have you changed anything in your diet? Perhaps its all moving a little too fast and you could try to take things slower. Do you know baby massage? That could help relax her before bed. Also some skin to skin contact might help too - help her feel at home and centre herself! Hang in there and I hope you all get some sleep tonight...

By bobby smith on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 06:13 am:

Hello all, good news georgia is no longer terrified to go to sleep it just went away,she is doing so well now she goes to bed at 6.30 or so then i go in just before my bedtime at 10pm and feed her while she is asleep, giving her less everynight we are now down to 50mls.
She ends up waking at btw 3-4 and i dont feed her or anything just bring her to my bed and she goes back to sleep till she starts to stirr,5.15 on the dot which i have to say is not the time id like her to do this but then she is fully awake and ready for the day at 6am,im trying to push that even till 6.30 ive tryed giving her a bottle when she stirrs at 5.15 and pushing her bed time along but her clock is set in its ways LOL so for now im an early riser,which isint to bad cos now im getting up the same time every morning it not such a problem(my clock must have switched on) LOL.
So i just wanted to share how we were doing and to say thank you for all the response,Hope everyone is doing well.
Take care,bobby

By rebeccab on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 10:31 am:

good on you bobby. i guess it's easier to be ok about the early waking now you aren't having stressful times going to bed and overnight too. i am putting up with my little sparrow at 0500 but still not thrilled. roll on daylight savings, it's amazing how having a different number on the clock makes it feel better, even though it is really the same time!!
you must have supported georgia so well through her stage of not wanting to go to sleep to allow it to pass. 'gently, with love' says pinky. hmm, it must be true...
becc

By rebeccab on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 02:57 pm:

HELP!!! it's almost 3 o clock. my husband has taken nicholas (almost 2) to the melbourne show and left me at home with just the baby, seamus (14 weeks) so i can have a bit of a rest cos i am full of a head cold and feeling more and more unwell each day (3 days ago i thought i was sick, now i feel hideouss). i have been for a walk i have used the pouch, i have rocked i have tried to cosleep i have fed him till he is about to explode, i have wrapped, i have unwrapped. but he still hasn't slept more than 15 minutes at a time since he woke up this morning. i have left him in his cot to write this rahter than cry all over the floor and slip on the floorboards and fracture my ankle. i don't want to leave him to cry but i am going demented. nigel and nicholas will be home soon, so very little chance of resting then, and seamus will wake when they come home anyway.
hang on, i think he has stopped crying.
will go and check
becc

By rebeccab on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 02:59 pm:

he's asleep. am going to reheat my cold cuppa then go to bed. i am sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo tired.
becc

By rebeccab on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 04:28 pm:

well the boys returned at 3.35, i closed my eyes at 3.14. hmmm don't i feel refreshed. NO!!! i feel crap. and now DH has gone to sports practice. i am planning to go to yoga tonight, if nothing else, to have 55 minutes to myself.
thanks for listening everyone.
becc

By Michelle on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 07:33 pm:

aw, *Big Hugs For Becc!*
Poor Darling. I hope they are both tuckered out tonight and sleep really well for you so you can finnally get some rest. Its so hard to recover even from a simple cold when you've got a tiny bubba and can't stop to rest and just feel miserable and sorry for yourself. Its the weekend soon. Maybe Nigel can take the boys out so you can have a couple of hours to yourself.
Enjoy your yoga! Hope you feel better soon.
Michelle

By pinky on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 10:41 pm:

Hugs Becc!!
Damn damn damn!!! - bet you could use stronger words than this, poor luv.

I do hope your kids dont come down with the bug too - could that be why Seamus is ratty? Or is he missing big brother?

Like Michelle -I hope you enjoy yoga and get to relax all by yourself -I have been known to fall asleep during even a 15 minute meditation at the end of a yoga class. Maybe they can just leave you there on the floor if this happens.

Hope they sleep tonight.

Pinky

By Kimberley on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 02:51 pm:

Hi Becc
hopefully you'll feel better soon. We've just been through something similar and at least I'm getting better now but Elsbeth's sick. There's a light at the end of the tunnel so hang in there!!!

By Amanda R on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:19 am:

Mmmmmmm. What I learnt 2nd time around is sometimes you just can't stop them crying and that it is ok for them to cry. As long as they have the comfort of someone who loves them then that is all that can be done. This saved my sanity, as with my first I felt like I had to 'stop' the crying. I admit to putting both of them down once or twice (on the bed which was on the ground) and walking outside for about a minute, taking a few deep breaths, telling myself that in the big picture it was such a short time before going in and picking them back up again. Sure, I tried massage, warm baths etc and these help sometimes but other times we just walked the boards with a noisy bub!

By Andrea Chapple on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 12:32 pm:

I am a new mum and i'm looking for some advice on my new baby girl. I was reading a posting by Stefanie (March 2004) where she said that she put sher baby boy down to sleep, then when he stirs she enters the room and consoles him, doing this over and over until he puts himself to sleep. I was wondering at what age is it suitable to start this? My daughter is only 2 weeks old, she is a calm little girl, hardly ever cries, but after she feeds, has a cuddle, I put her down she only sleeps for around 1/2 hour to an hour then she stirs, and lies in her cot mainly just making noises etc. I check on her and she is obviously tired, her eyes are glazy and she is not in any distress. After some time she starts to cry then I go to her, and she falls asleep in my arms. I feel as though she is not getting enough sleep during the day because she is not sleeping for any great length. At night, well for the past 2 nights, since she has been stirring during the day, she has slept from around 8-9pm till 2-3am, which is good for me, but I also worry she is missing a feed? i guess Im wondering if I could use Stefanies' idea at this early stage? If not Im quite happy to cuddle my daughter, if she becomes too upset in her cot. Any advice would be most welcomed!

By Pinky on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 11:27 pm:

Hi Andrea,
At just 2 weeks your baby is still adapting to being outside the womb so to help her sleep think of 'womb service' as I mention in my new book "sleeping Like a Baby" - at this stage it is best to help her settle just as you are doing by gently holding her, and also by wrapping her, wearing her ina sling sometimes and helping her feel secure. It sounds as though you are instinctively doing perfectly - watching your baby closely and meeting her needs for contact and love, rather than allowing her to become distressed. If she is feeding frequently during the day it will probably be ok for her to set her own pace at night time - if your breasts feel full or you are concerned, you can always offer her a feed.

I would recommend getting hold of "Sleeping Like a Baby' as it has a chapter on feeding which should be helpful.

Regards,
Pinky

By Bronwyn M on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 09:39 am:

This forum has been a very interesting read. I am an advocate of BOTH AP and non-AP parenting styles as I have learnt that whatever suits BOTH the parents and the baby is best. I am a "cuddler" myself, but my little daughter hasn't wanted a bar of being held from day one. She just seemed to pop out completely independent from the very beginning and would look at us with absolute disdain when we tried to use the AP style that worked with my son. Fully prepared to feed on demand I was completely flabbergasted to note that she only wanted a feed every (oh no!) 3 hours and then every 4. It was like she had read Gina Ford in the womb! I had to re-think my whole parenting style.

By Amanda R on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 08:34 pm:

LOL - Bronwyn, my 2 were exactly the same. My daughter (first born) was a cuddlepop and AP worked really well for her but my son pushed me away and had to wake him for feeds!

By pinky on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 12:21 am:

Yep- being the mum of different babies is very humbling - I had two very cuddly boys who would happily doze with a 'bust in the mouth' then my darling girl who finally went to sleep 'easily' when I popped her down one day after trying to soothe her to sleep in my arms - I swear she 'sighed' as much as to say, thank goodness that woman has left me alone -and talked to herself a wee bit then dozed off. (I really just needed to go to the loo). There-after I popped her into her cradle and she would chat a little then sleep without 'help'. Arent they funny little people - all with their own personalities and needs -so although I support an AP approach I hate labels as it implies that we are either on the 'right side' of an imaginary line or not.

Really, what we do is so personal - there isnt a right or wrong as long as we consider safety and respect of our children - to force a strict regime is neither respectful or "safe" if that creates tears and problems for our baby, but likewise, if we have a 'clockwork' baby or a child who is unsettled by unpredictability, it would be unfair to force them into being otherwise.

As mothers too it is great to support each other regardless of our parenting styles.

Thanks for your insight,

Pinky

By Bronwyn M on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 09:49 am:

Pinky, as ever, you make a lot of sense and it is very helpful for me to see that you also experienced a 'non-AP' baby! Such a surprise and the best thing is, it makes you seem even MORE human. Thanks.

One more thought on the 'clockwork' baby. Everyone says our little Arabella is such an 'easy baby' and so 'easygoing', but let me tell you, this is a little girl who knows EXACTLY what she wants and she has already worked out the most effective way of getting it... I suspect most 'clockworks' are like this. Now, my philosophy on this whole baby thing is "it's a marathon, not a sprint", so every now and then we wake in a cold sweat thinking of Miss Arabella going through (der, der, DAH) adolesence. Can you imagine!

So, if you have a 'difficult' baby, feel happy 'cos I just know that they are going to sail through what we all know is REALLY the tough parenting time!

By Michelle on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 01:54 pm:

Its true Bronwyn,
I was always worried about how 'difficult' my little man was as a baby, but now he's the most placid and easy going 2 year old.... its almost strange to me!

I'm sure every baby comes with their own challenges for their parents, they all are so very different. I think that is why Pinky's advice/style suits me, because it doesn't JUDGE a baby or a parent to be good/bad/AP/non AP etc etc we all just do the best we can for our babies, and share with one another what works and what doesn't- knowing that every baby is different and not everything will work for every baby.

By Pinky on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:10 pm:

ha ha Bronwyn -Im laughing about adolescence - my 'madam' princess - was a breeze -being so strong willed she wasnt a 'follower' although she did do a few rascally things - a large dragon tattoo on her calf is a reminder to her that she wasnt 'perfectly behaved' -Im sure it will be a wrinkled or varicosed reminder for when her own child is a teenager ( hes a VERY AP/ velcro baby at the moment - but only just 3 months)! The boys who were placid babies gave me a run for my money but as I mentioned to my mum recently -it takes a long time to grow a man( she actually remarked how surprised she was at how considerate one has grown to be because -"You wouldnt even "smack him!")

AArrggh - its fun watching these little people unfold -it would be so boring to have them all the same.

Pinky

By Anne Cameron on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 11:15 am:

Hi Everyone
Love the site. I have an 8 month old and WE cry alot of time. Getting her to sleep is a huge problem and has been for a while. I've read Pinkys books and yes feeding, rocking, cuddling etc her to sleep does work but the split second I put her into bed she's awake. If she does stay asleep she will be up about 1/2 hr later then the rocking etc starts again. This is every night and no night is the same She might stay asleep for 1 hour or could go for 3. I'm currently in counselling for PND their only sugggestions is to go to sleep school and use CC which I did against my better judgement. I know this didn't feel right and went back to what I was doing. So now I feel I'm back to square one. I feel that most nights I can't cope, I'm very lucky to have a great husband but he's not here all the time. So any suggestions, advice would be greatful. I feel that my daughter and I are having a bit of a hard time at the moment. I'm also worried that I have to start work in 2 months and that if she's not settling I'll be to worried about her in care and that they will leave her to cry. Thank you so much for listening, it's great to know that people out there do care.

By paula on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 10:56 am:

Dear Anne,
My deepest sympathy that you are all having so much difficulty getting some sleep.
Does your daughter cry when she wakes up and does she settle with a feed during the night?
Have you tried putting her to sleep in bed with you (and your husband)? When my son was that age, I found it easier to take him into our bed after the "bedtime rituals" - dinner, bath, massage, book, and feed him to sleep. Once he was asleep, I would just get up and go about what I was doing, then go back to bed later. That saved disturbing him.

Do you have any other family or friends who could come over during the day and help out so you can have some time to yourself to relax? Failing that, could you hire someone to help out? It is really important that you get plenty of rest and eat well for your own sanity.

As a mother of one, I feel that I may not be much of a help (I only have one child to base opinions on). Some of the other fantastic mums (with multiple experiences) that contribute to this site would be more help than I.

Try to do what you think is best and trust your instincts. We are all here for you and your baby.
Regards,
Paula

By Anne Cameron on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 03:49 pm:

Thanks Paula

Each time she wakes up she does cry and 9 out of 10 times a feed does setttle her but this can be up to 6 times a night. We have tried her in bed with us but that doesn't last long as soon as we move no matter how long you've been in there she somehow senses that we've got up. I've been told from others that she's a light sleeper. I have never been able to put her into her bed awake and was wondering if there are any key things that we could try. At night time she's feed, bathed, cuddled then rocked etc to sleep. We have just started baby massage so I'll hopefully be able to add that into our night time ritual.

I know people say that it will get better but at the moment all it feels like is that I'm trying to stop her crying so we can all get some rest.

My mum comes out once a week to give me a break but I'm finding everyday harder as feeding, rocking etc is taking it's toll on my back. My insincts keep saying yor're doing a good job but my body is saying the opposite and in the middle of the night after the forth time we've been up I do start to doubt what I'm doing is right, so usually we both end up crying.

Thanks for listening and not being judgmental it really helps to have people that listen and doesn't tell you just leave her she'll grow out of it.

By Michelle on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 04:56 pm:

Its so tough, sleep deprivation.
*hugs*

With the co-sleeping, (my son was a very very light sleeper too) I found that it took about a week for him to get used to sleeping with another person. Perhaps you could put her to bed in the normal way (rocking or feeding) and then just bring her in once you've gone to bed yourself? Perhaps after a few nights of sleeping together she will realise that you don't leave her and might get used to the movement and noises of sleeping in a family bed?

Or perhaps you could try putting a mattress on the floor and lying down with her when she wakes in the night to feed- at least that way you get a bit more rest and can go back to sleep if you want.

I've never been able to put my son in bed awake (except for a couple of weeks when he was about 18 months) but he sleeps through the night most nights. And on nights when he does wake up, its usually just once and he settles pretty quickly. At 6 months, he was waking up about 8 times a night on average- that was when I was still trying desperately to get him to go to bed awake in his own bed. Now he's 2, he sleeps so much better, but is still breastfed to sleep and is finnally in our bed all night every night (yes, girls miracles do happen- my husband now loves co-sleeping! I thought I'd never talk him into it) so going to bed awake isn't the be-all and end-all 'they' claim it to be.
They are little for such a short amount of time- sorry, I know that's hard to hear when you are in the thick of it, but I was there once (and probably will be again with the next baby) and it seems like a very distant memory.

In all honesty, I think the stress I put myself under trying to get him to sleep just made the sleep deprivation so much worse.
I went back to work (only 2 days a week though) when TJ was 12 months old and still not sleeping. It was tough, and she did CC on him (though she let him get up and just be overtired rather than letting him get very distraught, because she didn't want him to hate going there, which I prefered) and he sleeps well there now with no crying and he loves going there. He only goes one day a week though.

Anyway, I just thought I'd share my experience, I hope it'll help you, though it may not be the answer you are looking for, I guess all we can share is our experience.

Take Care, feel free to vent here anytime

Michelle

By Ebony Wigley on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 03:05 pm:

Hi Everyone,
I'm a first time mum to Joel ( 5 weeks ). We have had many settling and crying issues (from breastfeeding problems, colic and reflux) but with the help of a brilliant lactation consultant from Box Hill hospital and a change in my diet I am begining to sort these things out. The latest issue is slepping. He sleeps very happily in bed with us at night and in my arms or the baby bjorn during the day. However I am finding this very tiring and sometimes just feel that I need a little time for myself. I'm a big advocate of attachment parenting and love all the cuddles we get to have together (I got my first smile on Tuesday!) but sometimes I just feel the need to have a bit of my own space. My husband has been putting him on his stomach to sleep in the evenings (supervised of course) and Joel loves it. He will sleep for 2 - 3 hours on his own then and we all get a bit of a break. But for some reason it doesn't work for me during the day. I'm also a little freaked out by the whole SIDS thing.
Anyway to cut a long story short I'm begining to feel isolated and house bound. I haven't been happy with my Maternal and Child Health Nurse and am considering changing. Also they haven't started a New Mum's group and I am the first of my friends to have a baby (25 years old). I would love to find out about any groups of like minded mums in my area. I live in Glen Waverley. So that we could share our stories and just so that I could feel a little more normal.
I found myself looking forward to the lactation consultant day stays just so I could be around other mums who were going through similar experiences. Also Chris, seemed to care so much about Joel and I. It was wonderful but that has ended now.
I'd appreciate any suggestions.
Thanks, Ebony

By michelle on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 04:54 pm:

Hi Ebony,

Habve you joined the Australian Breastfeeding Association? They usually have regular get-togethers with the mums, are gentle and supportive and you know the mums are like-minded.

Sorry, I gotta go, my littleman wants to play wiggles on the computer with me!

By Michelle on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 05:29 pm:

okay back now LOL

Other thoughts I had were gymbaroo- I beleive they have classes for babies of all ages, and it might help tire him out so he has a longer sleep in the afternoon for you. Also if you look up a local playgroup, the advantage of playgroup is that there are kids ranging in age from 0-5 so you can literally see what's in store for you- sometimes its easy to forget how quickly they grow and change...Also there are often mum's with 2 or more children who have a bit of perspective and wisdom as they've been through what your going through before.
It is hard when you feel isolated, but hopefully you'll find some people who you connect with

With the sleep, I think it is important for you to try and get at least one nap a day with your bub if you can- so that might mean lying down with him in your bed during the day. You might find if you have a sleep with him in the morning you find it less tiring to have him in the sling for his sleeps later in the day, or vica versa. Though I found the baby bjorn quite uncomfortable, so it might be worth looking around for a more comfortable sling like the Ergo or a hugabub.
Maybe when your partner get's home from work he can spend some time with bubba while you have a cup of tea or a little quiet time to yourself to help you re-charge (and to help their bonding too!).

Take care, things get easier!

By julie on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 11:04 pm:

Hi Ebony. I remember my first time as a mum i freaked out about so much, As so much go's through your head during the day. Just a suggestion have you tryed pushing bubs in the pram. I noticed i could still talk to mine as well as have my arms rested.

If your feeling restricted perhaps try a nice stroll around the streets or even to the shops as the walks tier them out as well as you get out an about. I also found that it gave me energy, it took a couple of weeks for me to notice i felt better.

Bub will go through so many stages that you will relax about things in time. I have a 4 yr old and a 12 month old ( TODAY ) her bithday is. My 4 yr old boy just never settled until he was 3 so each an every baby are diffrent.

I think it's what you feel comfortable with and what works for you. good luck. cheers julie.

By Pinky on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 11:39 pm:

Hi ebony - rather than start GymbaROO at such a young age -I would join ABA first , or what about a baby massage class? I do these at knox Private which isnt far -its only a 3 week course but your mums group may have started by the time massage finishes or you will be finding it easier to get around then so may find your bub is more ready for another activity. There is also a lovely mums and bub yoga class at Mt Waverly and a BABs ( birth and babies) group that meets at Box Hill on Wednesday afternoons too -they are nice mums and there is always a midwife or two present, so its good support.

As Julie suggests - a lovely walk can help the 'cabin fever' and may help bubby sleep.

Happy birthday to your little one Julie,

Pinky

By julie on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 10:47 am:

Hi Pinky. Thank you Jessica had a wonderful day a she got so many gifts, She was more interested in the boxs a wrapping paper more than any-thing. LOL. Cheers Julie.

By Lisa Martinio on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 06:46 pm:

Hi Pinky and everyone else

I hope this forum is still going - seems last entry was in May several months ago (now end of Nov 07) I am the mum of a lovely 8 month old daughter and have been feeling a lot of turmoil lately as I havent been good at doing what all the "experts" tell you to do. My baby slept all night from about 10 weeks until she was 3-4 months old but as soon as teething started that went out the window and she was getting up 2 or 3 times in the night. Every time she woke up Ive breastfed her (I just thought thats what you were supposed to do) and she sleeps after around 20 mins. I recently found out all of the mums in my mothers groups use settling techniques and never feed at night. Some use control crying but it sounds like they have babies who respond well (supposedly depending on whos point of view you believe). Until today Id never heard of Attachment Parenting Methods .. and from the little Ive read so far that is what Im doing without knowing it. Im always picking up my baby when she cries etc. Anyway I went to Child & Youth Health for my babies reg check up and told them that my baby doesnt sleep much in the day (usually just quick 20 min power naps) and at night she wakes usually twice and that I feed her both times and they told me that I am creating seperation anxiety. That she depends on my breast to sleep and this is bad for her - she needs to learn to settle on her own or this will cause a lot of problems for her and me as time goes on and it needs to be fixed. They have me booked in for a day sesssion to teach me how to wrap and settle her (by letting her cry but by always going in to resassure her but ensure she can get back to sleep with me never picking her up) and if this doesnt work they will send me to a sleep school. I just want whats best for my baby and am open minded and would really like to know your take on this - which obv I guess you will oppose - but Id like to hear what you think. Im geniunely confused as to the course of action to take. Also my baby is starting one day a week child care as I am feeling overwhelmed, exhausted and need some respite - would you recommend this or think it detrimental? Its a very good ctr that i like alot. Please let me know what you think - I admire what Ive read so far and the compassion of the people whove written in - I really would like to explore all options to decide what is the right thing to do. Ahhhh its a confusing conflicting lot of info that mums get - hope you can shed some light for me

Cheers

Lisa

By Fleur on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 10:02 pm:

hi Lisa,
I can sympathise with you and understand what you are going through. the information we receive is so conflicting, the health nurses tell you one thing, but mother's instincts tell us another. I was feeding my boy to sleep so i did the day stay and then the sleep school for the week. After this he would sleep on his own during the day and through the night, this lasted about 4 months and then he started crying every time we walked into his room, we then re-verted to rocking him to sleep until he got too big, now we lay down together and he is asleep in minutes with no crying. At night he now wakes around 11pm i try to resettle him by lying down with him again in his room and if this doesn't work he comes in with us and is asleep before his head touches the pillow, if he stirs during the night I can reseetl him by patting his chest. You may not be looking down the co-sleeping road but I too are still told 'you have to put them down awake' but I feel you have to do what works for you and your bub.
You can only try the child care centre, you've obviously checked it out and you desrve a break, after a break you will come back feeling refreshed. You're not a bad mum for putting your child in care. My boy's awake so must be time to try and 'cuddle him' back to sleep. It feels like the natural thing to do.
Fleur

By Lisa M on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 10:34 pm:

thanks Fleur I appreciate you sharing your experience

By Ebony Wigley on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 08:41 am:

Hi Lisa,

i'm going through pretty much the same thing as you. My 8 month old boy has now started to pull up and stand on his own and has been crawling for a couple of months. I am pretty sure that he is crawling in his sleep and that often this is what wakes him up.
I'm lucky enough to have a good friend in my mums group who's baby also wakes frequently in the night (every 2 - 4 hours) and we are able to support each other through this time.
I have had a couple of shocker nights and I find that whenever this happens I am keen to try something new. My husband and I have both decided that we will not do controlled crying as we have done a lot of research on the developmental and emotional effects of it. A great book I have found is : The no - cry sleep soloution. Like the title says it offers a whole lot of ideas that do not require crying it out to encourage your baby to sleep longer.
I'll be reading it today!!
good Lucky, please just don't think you are the only one.

By Lisa on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 10:01 am:

I must get out the the book shops - thanks for the suggestion and encouragement!

By Pinky on Monday, December 3, 2007 - 11:28 pm:

Hi Lisa,

You sound like a gorgoeus mum with a really sound attachment to your baby. Your reassuring presence will absolutely NOT create separation anxiety!! I wonder where people get this tripe from.

AS well as Sleeping LIke a Baby ( My Book) I would suggest reading Helping Your Baby to Sleep by Anni Gethin and Beth MacGregor (Anni and I have done seminars together -we are planning more for next year) . Another fabulous book that you would find supportive is The Science of Parenting by Margo Sunderland, an Infant Mental Health specialist from the UK.

Hang in there - try and have an afternoon nap - your baby may sleep a little longer with you during the day. There are lots of reasons why babies start waking at night- often this coincides with new developmental milestones and these can be physical ( teeth/ new skills such as rolling and crawling) emotional (separation anxiety is ahealthy normal stage for all well-attached babies) or neurological - as new brain connections are being formed at a rapid rate babies begin to experience things in new ways -do a search on the Wonder Weeks - its a great book by dutch paediatricians re these sensitive stages - out of print at the moment but there is info on the web.

Best wishes - work out what works for you - you know YOUR baby best. If you do go to a day stay, remember this is YOUR baby - they cant make you stay if you feel uncomfortable!!!

Hugs,
Pinky

By beck on Tuesday, December 4, 2007 - 10:59 am:

hi lisa, i have 3 sons all of whom i have fed and slept with until they are about 3 when they decide it is time to sleep in their own beds. my youngest is 2 & 1/2 and is still breastfed at night if he wakes. i just find we all get more sleep and it is easier. my children certainly don't have any separation anxieties and i believe leaving them to cry on their own is more likely to course this, not what you & i do, by responding to their cues and needs. i know it is tough at times and especially for mums at the moment as the big push is to do control crying, contol comforting or whatever they are calling it now. keep parenting by heart - there are plenty of other mums who respond to their baby at night with a warm cuddle/breastfeed. have you thought about co-sleeping, some parents find they get more sleep because they are not getting in and out of bed to settle their baby? as to day care, i believe happy mum's make happy baby's. so totally your decision, whatever works for you i say. i always have a sleep during the day when my little one does - even a rest for 1/2 an hour which makes me a better mum to all my kids.
good luck
beck

By catherine on Tuesday, December 4, 2007 - 02:26 pm:

Hi Pinky
Are you planning to do any seminars in Perth next year? I would really like to go & it would be nice to meet you in person, since you've helped me a lot with my babies.

By Jen on Saturday, December 8, 2007 - 10:15 pm:

Hi,

I'm not sure if this is the place to be writing this or not - I've been searching the internet trying to find some advice.

My baby is just over five months old. From when he was born until about 10 weeks of age, he used to scream a lot at night before dropping off to sleep, but at 10 weeks I attended one of Pinky's seminars and decided that from that time on I would feed him to sleep. This has been working like a dream, despite the fact that I've frequently had really intense pain when breastfeeding.

But, something has changed the last few weeks and even though I've still been putting him on the breast he's started to pull himself off and then scream and scream. It seems to make no difference whether I'm holding him or he's in his cot, he screams. I'm beside myself as I don't want him to cry himself to sleep and yet despite my wanting to hold and/or feed him, he's still not happy. I don't know what to do.

Does anyone have any advice please??

Thank you!

By didee on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 09:01 am:

Hi Lisa

Just thought I'd also reassure you just like Pinky and the others, you are acting instinctively and that's right for you and your bub. You really should read Pinky and Anni's books so you can understand the whole controlled crying thing, and how distressing it is for baby and you. I tried a day stay at a clinic in Sydney with the strict understanding that I WOULD NOT let my son cry (he was 3 months old at the time, a high needs child and very poor sleeper especially during the day). They showed me how to wrap and pat him to sleep and explained that as I was there with him, it didn't matter he was wailing as my presence was still reassuring. Well, what a load of crap. I had to pick him up, and when i did, all was well. They advocated no eye contact and facing him away from me and not picking him up. Now what's wrong with that sentence? Why should I let my child (and me) get so upset, only to finally pick him up? Why go through all that stress? Please read those books Lisa - I know finding time to do so is hard - but it will open your eyes and soften your heart even more. I know I felt more empowered and confident in my abilities even though the problems took some time and tenderness to resolve. It's so hard when you are tired all the time and stressed; Mack is 10 and a half months now and we are going through frequent night wakings again due to him reaching teeth and mobility milestones. He needs more feeding and to be close to mummy....I am averaging 4-4.5 hours of sleep a night and this has been the norm for a couple of months. But I tell you, sleeping when they sleep (that might mean skipping washing your hair that day or your favourite tv shows of a night) make a hell of a difference. And the dishes and laundry will be there when you have time to do them, so don't sweat it. Good luck with your bub, I think you are on the right track - the fact you've written to this forum and are prepared to consider gentle sleep techniques is great. Pinky and Anni Gethin are real pioneers and stand outs in the midst of today's parenting professionals; they really know their stuff!

By AlisonF on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 09:57 am:

Hi Jen, my 6 month old started screaming at about 5 months too. He has cut two teeth now so your baby may be feeling discomfort from that too? I remember when my wisdom teeth came through and they ached so I have alot of sympathy for the little chap!
My son was quite good at putting himself to sleep in the early days, happy to chatter in the cot to himself for awhile, but now I'm rocking the screaming little boy to sleep. I cannot bear to leave him to cry in his cot, even if I'm there rocking it and patting him etc. Do not feel guilty if you feel the same, you are wired to respond to his needs.
Have you got your breast pain checked out? I often have blocked ducts, the joy of a good supply, and have had mastitis twice. I have read that blocked ducts can change the taste of your milk which your son could be responding to? Hormonal changes can supposedly effect the taste too. Has your period returned or have you started/changed contraception? Just an idea.
Best wishes.

By Lisa on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 10:12 pm:

Dear Pinky, Didee and Beck

Thanks for you words of advice - I am having some success with more sleep due to wrapping my darling girl (when I can manage it - I am so hopeless at it and she doesnt always like it) she wakes less frequently when wrapped which makes us all happier. Against the advice we got at the day visit I did, my partner and I pick her up still when she crys during settling and I feed her to calm her down if neccessary (we dont let her cry herself to sleep with pats as suggested by the nurses). Its hard to stay strong on this being told it is wrong by "the professionals" but I guess we really are the ones who know our babies best - although I must admit I still feel guilty all the time - I feel a bit damned if I do damned if I dont if you know what I mean. Anyway reading your responses does help me feel alot better and I do appreciate the support! Im trying to learn to trust my instincts. Forums like this are a great source for mums and Im so glad I found it. Will definately get to those book shops soon!!