By Kimberley on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 05:48 pm:

Hi everyone
I just have a question about comforting. It should be really obvious to me what is best and I should be trusting my instincts, but recently I've had comments in the order of encouraging me to let bub deal with minor upsets on her own. We go to swimming awareness classes once a week and the instructor dunks her under the water for a few seconds. This teaches her not to breath in under water. Anyway, Elsbeth gets a shock and when she comes up she's a little upset, but nothing major. My instinct is to instantly comfort and hush her then I jump around a bit holding her close and she's happy again. The instructor says that I'm putting too much focus on it and should ignore her and just change the subject and warned me that I'll make it an issue for her in the future. I'm 90% certain that I'm doing the right thing and I've found over time that Elsbeth cries for shorter periods (less than 5 seconds) or doesn't cry at all if she looks at me as she knows that everything's ok from past experience of being comforted promptly. Please tell me I'm doing the right thing or likewise, if I am being too much. Kimberley

By Michelle on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 07:49 pm:

Hi Kimberley,
This is only my experience, and first and foremost I think you should do what feels right for you. What I do when Taliver falls and hurts himself (learning to cruise and all) I always wait a few seconds before I rush over to him. Most of the time he is fine and just gets up, and keeps on going, sometimes he really has hurt himself and I know pretty much straight away because he cries (well, der!) and then I go over and pick him up and we have a cuddle (but I try not to make too big a deal about it, I just try and cheer him up without freaking out).

In my opinion, rushing over and making a big deal over something that may only be minor can actually scare the child... "Well, if mummy's upset, there must be something wrong!" and then they do get upset, when really they were fine in the first place. I guess what I am trying to say is that they feed off of your reaction, if your anxious and all over them (like my brother whom you all know about already...but I won't go into that!)

Its like when Amy found Nicholas on the Dining table and just calmly diverted his attention and got him down safely. She stayed cool, calm and collected, and didn't make a big deal out of it and it all worked out great.

It sounds like you are doing that (remaining calm that is) and as long as you don't make a huge fuss over it, I don't think it will be an 'issue' in the future. Just be sure to give her a chance to recover on her own (she might surprise you!). But of course if she is upset, go ahead and give her lots of cuddles! But a few second delay while you assess if she is upset or not certainly isn't going to hurt her.

It's really good that you can be there with her and comfort her when she is scared. I think if anything, this will give her MORE confidence in the future. (I can still remember my swimming teacher putting me in the deep end as punishment for crying and not being willing to put my head under water (I was about 6). Of course I only cried harder and then when I had the choice I didn't go back to swimming lessons. Still can't swim properly today!)

Good on you for listening to your instincts... after all, you don't know what parenting style your swimming instructor subscribes to!

Hope this all helps you feel more confident if you decide to stand up to the swimming instructor next time she says something!
Hugs & toodles
Michelle
(P.S how on earth do my posts always end up being so long?!?)

By Pinky on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 10:40 pm:

Hey Michelle - well said.
Kimberly, I am wondering why it is the instructor is dunking Elspeth under the water?
I would have thought that you would first tell her/ ask her (Elspeth that is), "now we are going under" and bob under together - do you blow on her face first? This makes the baby automatically take a breath in so she can be taken under without chancing that she will take water in up her nose. Maybe do some water play between lessons then show the teacher how you do it together

I will ask another mum I know who does swimming with her baby with Cookie Harkin in Melbourne what they do since my kids were a wee bit older before I took them to lessons - I dont think there is any need to force little ones and it sounds to me as though the reassurance is helping Elspeth's confidence. As Michelle says, being scared can last a lifetime - Im another case (that is, cot case) in deep water (anything over my shoulders!).I fell into a lake when I was little (about 4) and can remember being pulled out then (worst of all) having to wear my brothers shorts cos mum expected that he would need a change of clothes but didnt have a spare dress for me.

Most of my kids swim like fish, so obviously I managed to mask my own fears -Jono used to take James (the bonus baby) to the pools (babe magnet), and one day when James was about 3, he came home and told me he had jumped off the Tarzan rope - a long rope that swung out over the diving end of the pool. I asked, how did you reach the rope? he said, I hung onto Jonos neck - Im just glad I wasnt watching my then 18 year old with the toddler round his neck!

I think if you show your confidence in your child, they will believe its all ok , and if you support them and acknowledge their feelings gently, they will feel safe -and be able to reach "higher" as they are ready.

You know, instincts arent just 'airy fairy ' stuff - they are really a data base of knowledge and wisdom based on our own unique relationship and knowledge of our own child - trust yourself.

Pinky

By Kimberley on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 10:56 am:

Hi Michelle and Pinky
thanks so much for the advice. I'll keep trusting my instincts and be there for Elsbeth as she becomes more comfortable with going under the water and gradually gets used to it. That's a bit rough Michelle how you were made to go in the deep end. Unfortunately, as I keep finding as a new mum, there are lots of people out there who think it's good to bully babies and kids and to make them tough through upsetting them. Being nice is seen as a weakness, which is really absurd, as we all know. Sorry to hear your mishap with water also Pinky, you're right, early experiences (good and bad) do stay with us. You're sons sound like very fun-loving lads, which I'm sure has made your heart skip a beat or two.
When going under at lessons, we count to 3 so there's some warning, but we don't blow in their faces. I'm going to practice at home and try your approach Pinky re asking/telling Elsbeth we're going under and will insist at classes that I do the dunking.
Pinky I noticed in one of your books that you recommend when leaving baby to sat goodbye and hello when returning. I wondered when was a good age to start this, as I don't know if Elsbeth is ready yet.
cheers Kimberley

By Pinky on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 01:18 pm:

Hi Kimberly,
I think its great to use cue words or signs from an early age - ie sleep words, goodbye words can be started when you are leaving the room and returning, just to help with learning a concept then later when you do actuaally leave your baby you can create a bye bye / hello again ritual.

Babies can get the 'hang' of cue words and signs really early-I teach mums to give baby a cue about massage as they ask "would you like a massage?" and very soon even tiny bubs will shoot their legs out ready - one mum thought I was off the planet when I said this (her bub was about 5 weeks), but a couple of weeks later (by 7 weeks) the bub was giving clear signals she understood. The mum was blown away.

Its often easiest at first to let baby leave you - at a time of day she is happy, perhaps she could do the "goodbye" thing then go for a walk with Daddy or a good friend, then do the hello ritual when she comes back.

Again, there is no hurry to leave your baby - when it works for both of you is the best time.

But honesty, rather than sneaking away is best for developing trust that mummy will come back again.

Pinky

By rebeccab on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 04:14 pm:

Hi all,
Firstly I wholeheartedly agree with Pinky and Michelle. You have come to far in your parenting to question your 'instinct' which, as we have all said, is attributable to much more than just gut feeling.
Nicholas started swimming lessons at about 8 months and really loved it but certainly did the shock and cough and splutter with the under the water part. I just used to clap and cheer right away and tell him well done, so he could work out that the under the water stuff was an achievement. if he didn't respond well to that then we would step back and have a bit of quiet cuddle and reassure time.
Something else I have always done with Nicholas was prompted by my own experience of falling or hurting or whatever and being told 'up you get, that didn't hurt' Arggghhh, how does anyone else know what hurt you, they can't feel what you are feeling? So I have always, even before he could understand, said to him 'oops, are you ok? Are you hurt or did you get a fright?' in a bright voice. I just felt that for me, to be validated was really important and so if he starts to come to me I sit on the floor (mostly because it is sooo hard to lift him now at 8 months pregnant, but also so he can come and go when he is ready) and he comes over and sits on my lap or puts his arms out for a cuddle and up he gets when he is reassured enough. It was similar when he was crawling and sitting, arms up and wanting a cuddle then off he'd squirm when he had his top up of love and support. I am a bit of a panic merchant so it has been a really deliberate effort to not rush to him everytime he bumps or falls or gets a fright but I find this is working really well. I do respond vocally straight away though, with my little blurb, that is pretty important to me. it is by far the less often occurance that they do actually hurt themselves, they give themselves a fright all the time while they are testing the waters and developing new skills, particularly with cruising practice and completely new things like swimming, so knowing that they have a love safety net regardless must be a nice way to feel.
Climbing update: found nicholas on the table part of his hi-chair today. I was right next to him, he is so fast. Hmmmm.

ps I am with michelle. why are my posts always so long too? maybe it's cos we are so pasionate about supporting one another and sharing what we find works for us. or maybe I just can't shut up?......

By Kimberley on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 05:59 pm:

Hi Pinky
thanks for the advice. To date I have tended to disappear, because I didn't think Elsbeth would understand that I would come back. I like the idea of saying goodbye/hello if she goes somewhere with her Dad. Will give it a go.
cheeers Kimberley

By Kimberley on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 06:06 pm:

Hi Becc
thanks for the support. My gut has told me to validate Elsbeth's feelings like you say and then make it positive. You sound like you're doing a great job with Nicholas. It must be difficult with your new pregnancy as well, I guess I'll know what that's like in the future.
Nicholas really is a quick one isn't he!!! Á natural climber. Best wishes with your new bub.
cheers Kimberley

By Michelle on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 03:59 pm:

Hi Kim,
"I didn't think Elsbeth would understand that I would come back"

I've always said goodbye (even the first time I left him) to Taliver before I leave...I think I usually get more upset than he does! I had my first day back at work today. When I arrived home (My mum and sister's were looking after him) he wanted a quick cuddle, then it was back to playing with his Aunties!! I thought he would at least want a decent breastfeed, but apparently not! *LOL* Let's just say he's one secure and independant little fella!

By Kimberley on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 04:24 pm:

Hi Michelle
Congratulations on your first day back at work!! Hope you had a great day. I bet Taliver and his doting Nan and Aunties had a great time. Well done on having a securely attached little man. Cheers Kimberley

By Michelle on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 06:34 pm:

Thanks Kimberley : )

By Amanda on Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 04:17 am:

Hi All, I try not to rush in but if I do I try to not to over react. You all sound like youre doing wonderful jobs with your bubs. Jesse seems to get very upset if he tumbles over. But I have noticed the more he does it the less of a big deal it is when it happens. Also depends on how tired he is as to how much he reacts. I love the words you use Becc - are you hurt or did you get a fright, Im going to use those...thanks =o)
I also use hello to greet Jesse say if hes been napping and give him a big kiss, he usually reacts by going coy and smiling. When he was younger I would leave him with his Nan, to dash to the shops or what ever. I must use goodbye more though I think. Say I have an appointment, well either or both of my folks tag along and stay with Jesse. I will try to do this more and see how it goes. Although when I leave and return he seems quite content.
Ive thought about starting Jesse swimming lessons too. Youve all inspired be to get on with it. Thanks for the push. Any pointers I should look out for when assessing where to take him? Amanda

By Kimberley on Thursday, June 2, 2005 - 06:28 am:

Our swimming lessons are going well at the moment, What I've started doing is getting there a little early (if possible!!) and wading in the water with Elsbeth and giving her a doggy paddle. She's going ok with the dunking and hasn't been getting that upset lately - although sometimes swallows water or coughs it up which is better - still working on it but it's a small part of the class so not stressful. A bit of advice about choosing a place might be whether they have a change table for getting bub dressed after swimming as where we go doesn't and it can be a struggle. Have fun, Kimberley

By Amanda on Thursday, June 2, 2005 - 07:34 pm:

Thanks Kimberley, Ill let you know how I go with the lessons. Did Elsbeth know how to instinctively doggy paddle? Im looking forward to it but at the same time Im worried that he'll hate it. Great advice, ill keep it in mind. Cheers Amanda

By Kimberley on Thursday, June 2, 2005 - 10:48 pm:

She didn't know how to doggy paddle, but she knows that 'splash splash' means to wave her hands in the water and 'kick kick' means to kick her legs so I prompted her by saying these and off she went (with me holding her around the middle of course!!) cheers Kimberley

By Amanda on Friday, June 3, 2005 - 10:32 am:

I went and checked it out. Very professional so Im all excited about starting. We're going to look at a class in action on Saturday morning so Steve can be involved too. Ill try cueing Jesse like that too. Thanks heaps! Amanda

By Kimberley on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 08:49 am:

Hi Everyone
I recently borrowed a book from the library, talking about what to expect in babies first year. At a glance it was informative so I borrowed it. It had a lot of helpful advice, however, it recommends not to pick baby up often or on demand as they must learn to play on their own as this builds their self esteem. It also stated that baby (6-9months) needs to learn that mummy has needs too and she is busy some times. It warns against creating a spoilt child and that by leaving baby to wait you are teaching them to consider others' needs and not just their own. This doesn't sound right to me and I'm sure there are other ways to teach compassion in children when they're older. My thoughts were that by playing with bub at their level and in games they have made up builds their self esteem more so than saying 'no, you must learn to play by yourself'. I imagine that as they become ready they'll play more independently. Elsbeth likes to play on her own if I'm nearby and often refers to me for reassurance and some involvement in what she's doing like 'ta or chasing games'. She would surely get upset if I darted past her and into the kitchen and said I'm too busy. Does anyone agree or think that it is spoiling a child to pick them up or play with them too much?? cheers Kimberley

By Michelle on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 12:04 pm:

Of course not!

Anything that is as cut and dry as that statement has to be ridiculous.
I think the way that children get 'spoiled' is through lack of teaching, and giving them everything they want, when they want it even if it doesn't suit you (because it is easier than taking the effort to distract them, or comfort them).
As always, follow Elsbeths cues- there are no hard and fast rules! If she is happy to play on her on, and come and 'check in' with you now and then, that is wonderful. But if she is wanting you to give her attention, that is great too. I do think they need to learn that 'mummy has needs too' but it just depends on the definition of 'mummies needs' I guess. To me, playing with Taliver is up there on my list of 'needs' (and I'd much rather play than do housework!) But if I really need to do something, that is more important than playing with him, he can wait. I don't think it will kill him to whine for 5 minutes while I duck off to the toilet or quickly answer the phone. I think it also depends of your definition of 'waiting' as well. Children have a different sense of time than adults, so 10 minutes seems like forever to them as well.

I definately don't think playing with a child will spoil them! But at the same time, you don't want to teach them that 'mummy should drop everything right at this instant because I want something'. It's about teaching our babies patience, not about denying their needs. I'm not sure about the age at which we should start teaching them this virtue though.

Hope that makes sense. I will be interested to see what everyone else thinks.
Toodles

Michelle

By Kimberley on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 08:43 pm:

Thanks Michelle
I thought it was a bit OTT.
'I'd much rather play than do housework!' - too true.
I guess it comes down to trusting our instincts and staying confident in our parenting and weeding through the advice, eh.
cheers Kimberley

By pinky on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 11:01 pm:

oh girls , you make my heart sing !!

Keep doing what you are doing - babies learn so much from being played with. It doesnt sit with infant development to model selfish behaviour then expect a baby so young to learn consideration for others.

Of course , now they can often wait a few minutes while you go to the loo or peel the last potato ( with reassurance), but first you need 'roots' (security) before you can grow wings - you cant force independence. When babies feel safe, they will move away as they are ready.

Keep playing - your babies will let you know when they can play alone, when they dont want you 'in their faces' - and when they would rather play with their favourite people - mum, Dad, siblings, grandparents. This respect will build self esteem -as will knowing that they are loved and adored and worthwhile people (because the people who love them enjoy being with them!).

Listen to your baby, listen to your heart - and just take the good bits from any book.

By Amanda on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 08:38 pm:

Girls I know what you mean. Jesse is still clingy although now he is mobile he will crawl into the kitchen to be with me. He just calls out to say I need you here and most times I will go and say hi and then leave to finish what I’m doing. If he’s not happy about it I have to bring him, other times I can get away with it for a little while and other times we're both stressed while I finish it or decide I to leave what ever it is.
You know I have this book that talks about detached parenting and I don’t know what to do with it. I think - If I give it away I worry that another mother will adopt its principals literally and I don’t want that. Ill probably just end up putting it in the recycle bin. Hey I watched that move over the weekend “The Fockers” you know with Ben Stiller, they have Bens family who are kind of AP and then there is his fiancés parents you are detached. They have their grandson with them and there is all this talk about how to raise the child. I felt so sorry for this little boy and had to keep reminding myself its just a movie.
I think as youve already highlighted its important to follow their cues, be sensitive to their needs and feelings while meeting your own (while also being aware of the road ahead and know how or at least an idea on where you’re heading). I had often heard this when Jesse was much younger but as hes growing so quickly I now understand - they are little for such a short time, surely the small stuff can wait! Take care Amanda

By Michelle on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 08:43 pm:

Amanda, I felt the same way when I watched meet the fockers, especially in the scenes where they are doing 'controlled crying' I can't even watch it! Don't you think it was weird how the 'detached' parents were half doing attachment parenting things (BFing, signing- I would consider that AP as it helps communication skills which is sort of what AP is about, right?) and then missing the whole point and trying to 'control' and 'discipline' (if thats what you call it) the child.
But, at least AP is starting to get some exposure and become more 'normal' and DP is becoming more 'weird' and 'uptight' thats how I felt it was portrayed in this movie anyway.

Take Care, Michelle

By Pinky on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 11:50 pm:

Hi Girls- I thought the Fockers were hilarious! I watched it while in NZ - I had just spoken that day at a college of midwives seminar - to illustrate the 'normalisation' of unresponsive/ "baby management" parenting I had used the example of "Ferberising" babies.

That night, the midwife whom I was staying next door to and I decided to watch a video as her hubby was out. I trudged over in my Jarmies and she had got Meet the Fockers - it was such a hoot seeing I had just been talking about the confusion between parenting styles.

I loved Barbra Streisand's character. I loved how she secretly attended to the baby who was 'supposed' to be being 'ferberised' - and I loved the baby's first words - it so stuck it up the silly grandfather -I took it as a send up - perhaps its my lack of prolactin that it didnt upset me -I found when I actually had a nursing baby, I was constantly upset at inappropriate treatment of babies/ children - even in movies.
Mind you I still get apoplectic when I come across REAL life misinformation - check out routines for newborns in the current issue of PP. magazine -I wont write it out as a search engine will pick it up and I also write for this mag.

Whats the book Amanda?

If you think its really awful it is probably best either to 'bin it' so as not to keep it in circulation -or hang onto it (I collect books as well as people) for interest -I like to know what is in various books ( esp the ones I hate) so I can argue the controversial points from an experienced view - ie I have actually read the disgusting crap- I am not simply repeating somebody else's opinion no matter how much I respect that person.

Pinky

By Amanda on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 08:35 pm:

Hah Pinky I love your style!!! True true, must be the prolactin lol. I just kept looking at Steve going cant they pick the baby up for goodness sake. And when the fiancé picked him up towards the end I cheered "bout bloody time". Makes me chuckle now I see your view... And as you say Michelle its good that AP is getting some exposure and showing how DP is so unfeeling and uptight. Although most I imagine wouldn’t even notice sadly...
The book is The Baby Whisperer, have you read it? Man oh man where do I start. Anyway if you don’t have I would be happy to send it to you... I will then be contributing to your data collection of disgusting crap lol. Which btw this book will undoubtedly do... And ending my moral dilema... My Dad actually thinks I should right in the margins "utter crap, mindless baffle you get the gist. I’m glad I brought that up. Thanks for the laugh. Needed that...little uptight myself at the moment lol. Take care Amanda

By Michelle on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 12:37 pm:

Well, as I think you guys know, I've been struggling with dealing with Talivers screaming over every little thing this past week since he has been sick.
My mum came over during the week and I was complaining about how I didn't know how to stop it and she suggested that if I ignored him (giving neither good nor bad attention) he would soon learn that there was no point screaming, because it didn't get my attention. For some reason, this sounded logical to me. So, for about a day and a half I tried it and he ended up having some major meltdowns, hysterical, throwing himself on the floor, because I refused to pay him any attention. The other problem I found was in my own state of mind, I stopped being empathetic with him. I started thinking "just stop screaming" and getting really angry and frustrated with him, especially because it was carrying on for even longer.

Anyway, these days he tends to get a little bit tired and cranky around 9 am, but not tired enough for a nap, but booby seems to help dispell the crankiness. So, the other morning I was trying to ignore him, and he was just getting more and more distressed and I realised that I hadn't even thought about giving him booby. Probably because I didn't want to 'reward' his 'bad' behaviour. So then I felt bad and while he was having a nice long feed and calming down, I had a big long think about it.
What I learned from this experience is that
1. My mum isn't always right. I still really value her advice and opinions, but if it doesn't work or 'feel' right for me, I am able to stand up to her and say that it's not how I'd like to handle him.
2. Taliver doesn't scream because it gets him attention. He screams because he is frustrated, angry or tired. He doesn't scream for no reason. There is always some problem underlying his screams.
3. Even if I can't (or don't want to) solve his problem, just by acknowledging that he feels frustrated or whatever usually stops the screaming. It also validates his feelings.
4.By me ignoring him when he screams it is saying "you must not express your anger". How unfair is that. I would never ask him to hide his happiness from me, and just because anger is less pleasant doesn't mean its any less important.
5. Ignoring or punishing him isn't teaching him and I am his teacher. I need to show him how to express his feelings and that will take a long time.

When I recounted all that to my husband, he said "wow, you are such a wonderful mum. That truely is parenting by heart." and my heart just swelled with pride. And of course, immediately once I stopped trying to stop him from screaming and relaxed, he relaxed too and we had a wonderful day. I no longer thought of him as 'naughty' or 'demanding' and suddenly he stopped being 'naughty'.

I just wanted to share what I learnt this week with you guys. I feel like I've come to a point where I don't need others validation or approval of my parenting, because it is sort of starting to fall in to place. I'm sure in a couple of weeks I'll be desperate and feel like I have no idea what I'm doing again, but right now I feel like I could handle anything!
Take care of yourselves,
Michelle

By Amanda on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 08:14 pm:

How empowering Michelle, that is really wonderful. You relaxed and so did Tj. I have done similar with my Mums advice. And learned also that it didnt really fit and that in fact I do know my baby best - as you do! But it had to happen to come out the other side wiser and more confident. Good for you and you are a "wonderful mum". Take care Amanda
PS while i was reading your story I thought could be be GI - as in low blood sugar. I find Jesses behaviour can go up and down if he doesnt get a regular intake of either booby or food. just a thought (hugs)

By rebeccab on Sunday, August 7, 2005 - 08:40 pm:

michelle, what a great thing to read. you should print out what you wrote or write it in a journal or something so you can look back on it on those days that are a little more challenging.
of course you are spot on, and they are words and realisations that any one of us could have, or should have but you hit them all on the head in one go. and how wonderful to have that reflected back by your husband, always adds a bit when others can see too.
great job michelle,
becc

By Pinky on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 12:30 am:

Great job Michelle- you are truly a wise woman. And fabulous to have hubby see this too.

Your words should be framed!!
Pinky

By Michelle on Monday, August 8, 2005 - 07:46 pm:

Thanks everyone *Big Group Hug*

I copied it and saved it to keep. Maybe it will help if I'm pulling my hair out with the next child to be able to go and look back at what I did with Taliver.
Amanda, it could well have been something like that. As he was sick, he wasn't eating as much as usual, and sometimes it was hard for him to latch on for very long because of his blocked nose. Hopefully his nose will clear up soon and we'll be right.

He's screamed a few times since, but they are short lived, because as soon as I pick him up it or speak to him it stops- No more meltdowns and I feel like a better, more in control mum for it.
Thanks for your ever-wonderful support and encouragement

By Amanda on Tuesday, August 9, 2005 - 08:54 am:

Big hugs back! Good idea Michelle. I think it would be so helpful to read back on your present thoughts and experiences especially with future bubbas. Poor little Tj not being well. No fun! Big hugs for TJ too... Hope he starts to feel better soon. Take care to you all A

By Kimberley on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 11:18 pm:

Hi Michelle
those words were inspirational! You did really well trusting your own instincts and are so in tune with your little man, he's very lucky to have such a great mum!! cheers Kimberley

By Jo on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 05:50 pm:

Hi There,

What fate it was to read your words Michelle, I had Seamus at the Health Nurse this week for a checkup and while she wasn't too negative on the idea of still feeding during the night she did comment on it in a surprised way insinuating that I could maybe give it up now. When I asked HOW? She suggested that I would have to let him cry and I told her that wasn't going to happen. SO That night it must have been in the back of my mind and I tried to resettle him with a cuddle and the dummy, it worked for an hour and then I fed him, he only took one side as he was tired and I was feeding again 2 hours later so I had much less sleep than if I had of fed him in the first place - having said that, my point is that a comment from someone else no matter how well meaning can really throw us off our paths. It's great to see that you could get back on your path so positively Michelle, thank you for letting us in on your intuition.

By Michelle on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 06:45 pm:

Ggrrrr! I hate the fact that the people who are supposed to help you with your baby seem to know so little about them! Seamus is still such a little bub, I can't beleive she thought he should be sleeping through at his age, how ridiculous! And to suggest letting him cry at 2 months of age, especially when the mother is coping as well as you are, that makes me so angry.
But, I'm really glad to hear that you're confidence is back up and are able to see that Seamus is hungary and feed him and get more sleep now. I'm sure that you will 'know' when he is able to go longer without feeding.

For us, this has happened recently. My DH was pressuring me (again) to do CC and I suggested trying to see if he'll settle without a feed instead. He is still having one feed a night around 3am (I bring him in with us and then he sleeps through till morning!), but he is sleeping just amazingly. And, when he does wake up before that, he usually falls back to sleep within about 5 mins with me just cuddling him. I'm amazed at the difference but I know that if I had've tried any earlier, it would (and has) turned out the same way, more frequent wakenings because he truly was hungary. But over the last couple of months, he has been having very short feeds between 8pm-2am ish, and some nights was rejecting the breast and wanting other comforts.

The other thing I've realised is that Taliver sleeps better at night when he doesn't nap as long during the day (it seems that way at the moment anyway) which is the opposite of what the NCSS preaches. Hmmmm...

By Amanda on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 08:49 am:

I find that too btw that the less Jesse sleeps during the day the better he sleeps at night. When he slept well during the day very intermittent at night. Every baby is an individual these hard and fast rules are just no realistic...

By Jo on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 02:36 pm:

Thanks for your responses,

What is NCSS?

Seamus is 6mths btw and loves he's sleep, just recently he only had about 3 cat naps of 40mins during the day and then I put him to bed at 4pm and had to wake him at 8.30pm for a feed albeit a sleepy one and then back in bed by 9.15 and didn't feed again until 3.30am!!

At the moment he's mostly waking around 3 for a feed and then again at 6 which is the start to the day so if I get to bed after his last feed aroun 10 then I'm not one to complain, it's forcing myself to get to bed that's the problem.

Do any of you find that when everyone else is in bed it's nice to catch up on some reading,craft, fav TV etc?? Although I'm trying to cut out the latter?

Jo

By Michelle on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 07:42 pm:

LOL, whoops, sorry Jo. I think I was getting your Seamus mixed up with Rebeccas who is 2 months old, sorry!
NCSS is the No Cry Sleep Solution, which I had been doing as Taliver at Seamus's age was waking every hour at night.
It sounds like Seamus is a fantastic sleeper! And I'm sure you don't mind getting up just once in the night. Sometimes I find it hard to put myself to bed as well, But my DH and I have a nice little routine of cuddling up on the lounge after Taliver is asleep and eating desert while watching t.v (unfortunately for me, its cricket season...again!).

By Jo on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 10:38 am:

I tend to cuddle up to a glass of wine after the kids are in bed and before you know it I'm dribbling on the couch and hubby elbows me to go to bed - romantic huh!!

By Michelle on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 06:27 pm:

hehehe, I used to do that every night when I was pregnant (minus the glass of wine of course) but David didn't mind, because I let him watch whatever he wanted - I even encouraged him to watch the cricket, because it would put me to sleep in 2 seconds flat! Hahaha!

By Nicole on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 12:33 pm:

I was just looking at the previous posts and saw what Michelle had written on Aug 7, and it made me feel so good, because it's so easy sometimes to get confused when people in "authority" who we assume know what's best (even our mums!) tell us what to do when it comes to raising our babies. The truth is that WE are the mummies and WE know what's best. WE are the ones who are spending 24/7 with our littlies and WE have a level of intimacy and understanding with them that no-one else can. It's so important to not lose sight of this, so thank you Michelle for reminding me of this, especially after I spent yesterday with my mother and she was suggesting I should let Elizabeth cry at night rather than getting up and comforting her and feeding her. Of course I thought "no way!", but it's hard when it's your own mum saying that and you are operating on only 4 1/2 hours sleep!

By Michelle on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 08:21 pm:

It certainly is hard to articulate how you feel to yourself, let alone anyone else on 4 hours sleep! A big hug to you Nicole, you're doing a wonderful job.
And although I heard it a million times, and never beleived it was true.... This too WILL pass! I never thought I would sleep again, and well, at 14 months Taliver is still getting up once during the night, but it is usually after 8 hours of uninterupted bliss. This is a child who at 6 months was waking pretty much every 45 mins all night every night. I was a total zombie, and i thought that the nightmare I was living was never going to pass.
.... but now it has. And I am so glad that I never gave in to the pressure and let my boy cry alone. Oh, he cried plenty, but i was always there with him through it.
Wouldn't it be nice instead of having people tell us how to 'fix' the 'problem' we could get some real help and support? like someone to look after the child during the day so that you could nap or someone to help with the housework so that you can actually have a shower and start feeling human again.
Even if you can't express to others WHY you are doing what you are doing, you know that you are doing the best by your child and that is enough. No-one else needs to know what a wonderful mother you are, because your child will, and that is all that really matters.
I'm glad that my experience has given you confidence in what you know to be true. Through the fog of sleep deprivation, it is SO hard to stand up to people who are able to 'think' logical thoughts -because they are not the ones who are sleep deprived, and they are not the ones who are programmed to respond with every cell in their body to that babies cry!

By Kimberley on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 06:18 am:

Hey Michelle
that's great advice and well done with getting to where you are today. I remember how hard it was for you and to think in a reasonably short time (although it doesn't feel like it) you've ridden through that hard time with constant love for Taliver. Like you say, he knows how much you love him and that is what matters!! Good on you, Kimberley

By Nicole on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 09:31 am:

I'm hearing you on the front of people giving us real support instead of telling us how to 'fix' the 'problem'. If only my Mother had told me to go and have a sleep for a couple of hours while she minded Libby instead of waffling on about her problems and how tired SHE is! Granted, she does help us in other ways, but nothing else matters when you haven't had sleep!
Luckily, my hubby David has a home-based office, and even though he's busy, can structure his days to suit, so I do get a couple of mornings a week where I can hand Libby over to him after her early morning feed and then sleep until about 8am - bliss!!
I can't believe Taliver was waking every 45 min at 6 months old - poor you!! But congratulations on not letting him cry - we tried cc with Libby at about 5 months old - it was a disaster, she just screamed longer and louder each time. After the prescribed 5 (hellish) days (when the sleep trainers say it should be working - hah!) David and I decided no more, never again, that it went against every instinct we both have as parents. I'm now ashamed to admit we even tried - my poor little baby. So thank you for your kind words Michelle, it's so lovely to know there are other parents out there who respect their child as a human being, not a little number to be regimented into a cold hard routine that ends up suiting nobody.

By Michelle on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 01:08 pm:

Nicole,
Don't be ashamed, its the so called 'sleep trainers' who should be ashamed! As new parents we are bombarded with the pressure to CC and its only because I'm so damn stubborn that I won out against the pressure. And, once you had been through that hellish week, you realised it wasn't working and stopped. That's all that matters. I'm sure if you told this to the 'sleep trainers' that they would make some excuse like 'you didn't do it properly' or 'weren't consistent enough'. I feel like reading your post out loud to my hubby who is sitting next to me, but I don't want to be a smart-arse. He never understood why I refused to do it. On the positive side, at least you and your husband agree that it is not what you want and are a united front. It sounds like he is very supportive, giving you an extra sleep in when you need it. I used to be so tired that I stopped complaining about it, but it really used to annoy me when people would start up about how tired they were!
Thanks Kimbereley, I don't think I could have done it without the support of you all you guys.

By Amanda on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 08:29 am:

Hi Nicky, You may feel better to know that most of us have tried CC in some form or other. As CC seems to be the only advice out there for many mothers its not surprising. Michelle is right you have nothing to be ashamed of! You are a wonderful mother so more power to you. Amanda

By Nicole on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 09:49 pm:

Thank you for your support and kind words, ladies!
It never seemed to make sense to me - controlled crying, that is. Just the fact that your little baby is crying their eyes out, because they've suddenly been left alone in their room, and told to go to sleep like a good baby only briefly by mummy or daddy - how are they meant to understand that? I believe they only fall asleep out of exhaustion, and their little throats must be so sore from all the crying - just think how you would feel if it was you. They only fall asleep out of exhaustion, and what's that meant to teach them? Certainly not to fall asleep without crying - more likely that bedtime is something to be feared. I remember reading a report on the net (I can't remember which one exactly, but I could maybe find it if anyone's interested - not that anyone here needs convincing!) that babies who have cc done to them are more likely to suffer from an anxiety disorder when they are older. Well, as you all probably know, I suffered panic attacks for a few years in my twenties, so there's no way I'd want to even slightly increase the risk of that for Elizabeth! I always like to think that there was a reason for rocking chairs being invented, and it's such a happy time for us when I rock my little girl to sleep! Why spend ten minutes listening to her cries when she's too little to understand what's happening when I can spend ten minutes cuddling her and singing softly while she happily falls asleep? Gee, I've waffled on a bit, but I'm so happy you all feel the same way about these things!!

By Nicole on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 10:27 am:

I just wanted to say that the fruits of my 4 1/2 hour long sleep session (see previous post 18 Aug) have been borne. Elizabeth has 4 little pearly teeth emerging in her top gums!! I'm just pleased my baby didn't have to go through any "teething pains" alone and uncomforted!

By Kimberley on Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 08:33 am:

Wow, that would have hurt, congrats on the teeth how cute!!

By Amanda on Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 09:32 am:

Yay for Elizabeth on her new toothy pegs!

By Nicole on Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 07:49 pm:

Thank you guys!
We now use the baby toothbrush every night - it's so cute seeing her trying to imitate Mummy (we look in the mirror as we do it) and brush her teeth. Do you all do the same sort of thing?
ps. Another query - Elizabeth has decided as of the past week she wants to wake up at 5am. Okay, I can deal with that as long as I get to bed early, but this morning she decided to wake at 4.30am!! With the lights kept low, I gave her a feed, and quietly changed her very full nappy (nappy change, then feed, in that order!) but she would not go back to sleep. I rocked her, I patted her, I sang softly to her, but oh no, it was time to play!!! Do you think this is just an aberration, and is there anything I can do to change her waking time of 5am at all? I am going to try to put her to bed 1/2 hr later tonight, and continue that for a week, then another 1/2 hr next week, and see if that affects her waking time. I feel a bit silly even asking for advice, because I think I know deep down there's nothing I can really do, but maybe I can be proven wrong!!!! Please prove me wrong!!!!

By Kimberley on Friday, September 2, 2005 - 10:29 am:

Hi Nicole
I think moving the going to bed time back can help and perhaps even reducing the naps during the day might make her sleep longer at night. Although, if Elsbeth needs a longer sleep during the day, I don't stop her as it can get pretty ugly, but then I know she'll be up later at night. I remember Pinky commenting that babies are wakeful in the early morning hours due to a primal trait for protection from predators as it made sure the mother was guarding the young (this is probably also the case with animals). I also read that they get their best sleep before midnight which links up with this theory, so it's a conundrum. Do you keep them up later, so they sleep later in the morning or do you encourage them to go to bed earlier for a more restful sleep, and perhaps reduce the day sleeps? At the moment, we're in a going to bed late pattern, rising around 7-8am, then having 2 day sleeps. Elsbeth has been having a late day sleep, which then puts her going to bed time back. Unfortunately today, she went to sleep at 4pm (I'd been giving her opportunity to sleep for about an hour before this) and slept until 5.30pm and then wouldn't settle for bed until 9.45pm. I plan to try to move her afternoon sleep forward or wake her if she goes past 1hour, but I feel mean waking her plus I enjoy the break while she's sleeping. It may also be that she's in a transition from 2 day sleeps to 1 day sleep. I remember someone saying, I think in one of Pinky's books, that imagine you're on a desert island and what would you do then and I guess it makes me think well I wouldn't know what time it was and I'd lay around eating coconuts all day and drinking pina coladas hopefully and sleeping as I wanted. I guess it just makes me think to go with Elsbeth's rhythyms of sleep and hopefully it will all pan out in the end.
Good luck with it, Kimberley

By Amanda on Friday, September 2, 2005 - 08:19 pm:

Hey Gals, Hmm I wouldn’t worry too much. I feel that Elizabeth probably was rested and therefore wanted to play not sleep. I know when I am fully rested I wake and cant go back to sleep! You could try steeling some sleep but I would just stick to your usual routine because on most occasions its working – right? Hopefully it will be infrequent... And as you say you can always go to bed a little earlier the next night to make up for your missed sleep. Although Kimberley is right in that its possible to move things around a little if you wanted to. Sorry not much help! Amanda

By Rachael on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 12:21 pm:

Girls,
Maybe you can help me, when it comes to bed time for Braedyn no matter what time it is , day or night i have to fight to get him to sleep. He had an operation on his tongue tie in Aug and after that he was having trouble getting to sleep, i have tried nursing him to sleep he will cry, i have tried putting him in his cot, he cries i have tried co sleeping he cries... He is 10 months today and i have thought maybe it could also be teeth as he still has none,when he does finally fall asleep he may sleep and wake up a couple of times through the night but it is not that bad, it is the pain of him crying with me trying to get him to sleep...
Please anyone with ideas... i have just purshased the No Cry sleep Solution book, but thought i would ask you girls as well.
thanks Rachael
Please any ideas!

By Kimberley on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 09:31 pm:

Hi Rachael
I don't know why your son is having difficulties, but is it possible that he's feeling anxious from having undergone the surgery on his tongue and being in hospital? Was he upset during this time? Maybe he's adjusting to the different feel of his tongue (I don't know much about tongue ties or the surgery involved so can't really comment here). Maybe he is getting some teeth as you say, I know with my daughter, when she was teething, she was much more irritable and had trouble settling. At this time, the best solution for us was for me to hold her in my arms, letting her feel my bare belly and listen to my heartbeat. It was difficult to move her at this time, even once asleep. Sometimes I would b/feed her to sleep or other times the dummy was enough and it was more the closeness to me that helped. For teething, we used zooper doopers (ice blocks in plastic sleeves) to helps numb her gums and distract her from the pain. Hope this helps and things improve soon. Kimberley

By Amanda on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 08:37 pm:

Hi Rachel, Ditto what Kimberley has suggested. But another suggestion. Have you heard of or read The Aware Baby by Aletha Solter? http://www.awareparenting.com/ Perhaps as Braedyn has had such a difficult start with his tongue tie and then surgery he may need to express his hurt and "trauma" through crying. Although this book is heavy reading it does explain this concept at length. I did this with Jesse as he was born CS and I feel it did make a difference. It does seems to make sense. Although with that being said perhaps hes actually over tired... Catch 22 I know but as hes tired and wants to sleep but cant now hes continually over tired. How to get him to sleep - now theres the tricky part as you know. Infant massage is supposed to be really good if your baby will stay still long enough to enjoy it. What about a wind down ritual, cuddle followed by story followed by more cuddles followed by booby and lay down and cuddle? What are you routines like? Really TNCSS will talk about routines and I quite liked the book. Check out Alethas website and see what you think. Good luck with it and please post back and let us know how you go. Take care Amanda

By Rachael on Wednesday, November 9, 2005 - 05:49 pm:

Hey girls, thanks for all your advice, Braedyn is finally going to sleep with out too much hassle. I changed our nightly routine and I am putting him to bed at an early time, and this is actually helping him sleep through the night. I had a look at the websote you reccommended Amanda and i got a lot from that and have looked at ordering the tears and tantrums book. Bj goes to daycare two days a week and these days are the hardest to get him to sleep as he is so tired when he gets home. But thanks to your advice girls and your ideas everything is much better.
will keep in touch.. Rachael

By Amanda on Wednesday, November 9, 2005 - 07:23 pm:

Yay Rachael! Thats really great. YOu sound like a new women too...good for you. Great you found the sites helpful also. I havent read that one so perhaps you could let me (us) know what its like when youre done? I think also its pretty typical that Bj is a little unsettled from his time at daycare from what I understand. But just knowing this I think makes it easier to understand and compensate on those days... Enjoy those uninterrupted nights too you lucky thing. I wish I could say we're experiencing them but ahh I just keep telling myself "in time"... Take care Amanda

By rebeccab on Wednesday, February 8, 2006 - 09:28 pm:

well, have fallen off the confidence horse. i feel like i have no idea how to settle seamus (8mths) without feeding him. feeling a bit lousy. thoughts?
becc

By Kimberley on Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 11:08 pm:

Hi Becc, sending lots of emotional support your way. Can you try patting and rocking and music perhaps. Have you thought of using a dummy to satisfy his sucking need, I know not ideal, but maybe just to get him off to sleep then you can take it out. good luck with it, Kimberley

By Pinky on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 10:20 am:

Hi Girls- hope things are settling down a bit Becc. It si hard wrk with 2 littlies.

Here is a link to an article I have sent Becc offline =- give yourselves a big pat on the back ladies!!! And hugs from me.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0838/is_132/ai_n15623298

By Michelle on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 08:25 pm:

Thats a fantastic link Pinky!!
I sure wish I'd have been handed that the minute I was taught to breastfeed!! Would have saved me so much angst and confusion.
But its all good, I know it now for the next baby, plus I will be educating the women around me as they have their babies.

I think one of the important things society needs to know is that women need to be with their babies!! I remember feeling like a freak for the first six months because I didn't like to leave him with anyone. There is plenty of time for people to babysit later.

Thanks for the link Pinky, I will be printing this out for anyone planning to breastfeed their babies.

By Kimberley on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 07:36 am:

Hear hear, great article!!! Thanks Pinky
I'm with you Michelle, the inlaws still think I'm weird, more fool them eh. cheers, Kimberley

By rebeccab on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 09:04 am:

hi everyone,
thanks for comforting words and the great article, Pinky. seamus has started sprouting his top 2 teeth and both of them now have colds so i think i am a little more relaxed about the feed for comfort thing, cos there is a reason. however, now thinking about the 'why do i need a reason' aspect. maybe i told myself i needed the legitimacy of teeth or illness to feel ok about the fact that seamus prefers to sleep after feeding. but surely the need of comfort without a physical cause is just as valid.
have had a bit of a paradigm shift and am trying to be more accepting of things, rather than controlling. it'll all come to pass and i'll wonder how it happened so fast and wish it back. i think it is compounded by the sleep disturbance and the beginnings of a cold myself. so trying to mellow out.
and as a reward for my step back pursuits, i entered 2 competitions a couple of weeks ago, one through notebook magazine, which i love, and one through motherinc website. and i n the last 3 days got 2 emails telling me i had one them both - - $80 bra and undies set for one and a cookbook for the other. i think i'll become a competition- a- saurus!!!
thanks again everyone,
becc

By Kimberley on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 10:14 pm:

Good for you Becc re taking it slowly, like you say it will pass quickly enough. I like the saying, 'the days pass slowly, but the years pass quickly', it's hard to see how far you've come and where you're going when you're in the thick of it. You've done a great job to feed Seamus like you have, he's sure got an appetite. You've set him up for good health for the rest of his life!!! Congrats on the prizes!! Kimberley

By rebeccab on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 07:41 am:

thanks kimberley, i love the quote. am going to try to say that a bit more often. as for mr appetite! - 10.5kg at 8mth check last week!! gee i laughed. and he is hardly having any solids. health nurse tried to give me 'the talk', and i said look, before you start, i know he isn't eating too much solids, he has never touched formula, this is who he is, i am not interested in hearing how i might 'control' his intake. i came to have his development assessed and not to walk away feeling worse about my mothering. ha!! i really did say that!! i couldn't believe it, especially since i have been feeling so low. but i just knew she was going to start and i wan't going to let her rob me of the joy of seamus's rolly little legs and make me feel crappy rather than reading my childrens' appetite and food preferences for myself.
snyway,
gotta make breaky now. seamus needs his 12 weetbix LOL!!!!!!!!

By Pinky on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 05:02 pm:

Go Bec!!! Congrats on the prizes too!!!

Give yourself a BIG pat on the back!
Pinky

By Michelle on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 07:22 pm:

LOL, maybe Seamus can help you with that BIG pat!
:P J/K!!

Good on you for sticking up for yourself! Bet she wouldn't have seen that happening

By Michelle on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 07:47 pm:

I meant coming, not happeing

By rebeccab on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 08:26 pm:

ha ha
becc

By Amanda on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 09:34 pm:

Hey Becc, Sorry missed all this. Yay for you on all counts, your prizes, sorting out the CHN with your spirits in tact lol and being such a great mum looking after Seamus the way you do. You sound like youve got it together. Good for you! Youve inspired me to check out some comps now lol. You deserve it. KWYM about needing a reason sometimes but I feel these small lobsticees are just little reminders for us to remember to enjoy ;) Hugs Amanda

By Kimberley on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 05:39 am:

Oh wow Becc, good for you!!!! What a great thing to say!!!! Wish I was a fly on the wall. Do they think cos you go there you're wanting to be reprimanded and corrected? You've probably made her think about how she delivers her comments and the impact they DO have on mothers. And Seamus, what a healthy lad, good on you, that's all YOUR doing!!!! You deserve that pat on the back and a foot rub and a facial, oh but don't we all lol... You've inspired me to say what I think more, so look out unsuspecting interferers!!! take care Kimberley